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WinxonN44 New Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2022 Posts: 6
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:08 pm Post subject: Pressure Headaches |
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Hey y'all, I'm a junior in High School, I have a pretty useable range up to high e. My highest note is double a. Lately I've been progressing really fast but every time I play past E I get terrible headaches for a few minutes. I haven't had these since middle school and my question was what causes pressure headaches, and how can I get rid of them? Is it relaxing, too much tension, any thought is much appreciated! |
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WinxonN44 New Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2022 Posts: 6
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Pressure Headaches |
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WinxonN44 wrote: | Hey y'all, I'm a junior in High School, I have a pretty useable range up to high e. My highest note is double a. Lately I've been progressing really fast but every time I play past E I get terrible headaches for a few minutes. I haven't had these since middle school and my question was what causes pressure headaches, and how can I get rid of them? Is it relaxing, too much tension, any thought is much appreciated! |
For context I'm playing on a GR 65M, so around a D cup, and a Bobby Shew Lead when needed. The headaches come on both. I play on a Yamaha 8335S Gen 2. |
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Doug Elliott Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1191 Location: Silver Spring, MD
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Too much air pressure, which reduces blood flow to your brain and can cause you to pass out. Something you're doing isn't efficient and you're relying on extreme air pressure, much more than is actually necessary. |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1036 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Playing the trumpet shouldn’t hurt. If it does, then either there’s a serious flaw in your technique, or there is some underlying physical issue that you may wish to get checked out by a doctor.
That being said, when do the headaches happen? Is it only with high notes? Do you feel you require a lot of force (muscle and/or air) to play? Have you discussed this with your teacher (presuming you have one)? _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I would suggest to contact a doctor and have a general health check.
If the doctor OKs continuing to play the trumpet as usual:
One day at a time, measure and record your blood pressure immediately after:
1) being relaxed (Monday) - baseline;
2) playing low notes (Tuesday);
3) playing in staff (Wednesday);
4) top of the staff to high C (Thursday).
I think it is better to stop before getting into the range above high C.
Usually it is not recommended to do multiple blood pressure measurements in sequence, hence the spacing. If you feel strange playing any of the above, stop, relax, do not continue playing (particularly, higher) and go to the doctor again.
You could also measure the blood pressure once fully woken up every day and then according to schedule. This would give a daily morning baseline in addition to effects of trumpet playing on the blood pressure.
I would also ask for MRI imaging of the cranial area, just in case. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3366 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Pressure Headaches |
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WinxonN44 wrote: | ... my question was what causes pressure headaches, and how can I get rid of them? ... |
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'too much pressure' is needed when your lips provide too much resistance to air flow.
The 'trick' or 'skill' is to discover how to adjust your lips so they are flexible enough to vibrate properly without the need for excess pressure (easy said, not so easy done!).
I suggest you try making slight variations in the rim pressure distribution between the upper and lower lips (to allow more flexibility), and tiny variations in the vertical distance between your upper and lower front teeth by very slightly pulling your jaw down (not much actual movement, mainly muscle activation), and allowing the lower lip to slightly change its shape. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2594
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Doug Elliott wrote: | Too much air pressure, which reduces blood flow to your brain and can cause you to pass out. Something you're doing isn't efficient and you're relying on extreme air pressure, much more than is actually necessary. |
Air pressure inside the oral cavity sufficient to restrict blood flow in the surrounding blood vessels. That's the gist of it.
Try practicing the high register at the quietest volume you can which still produces the sound. Try to relax as much as you can as you do so. Do not strain. Just get the notes to speak. You will train yourself to be more efficient through this process.
One exercise to train efficiency is to not actually use lung power at all. Instead, set up to play the note just with a mouthful of air and force the air through the lips by tongue movement.
Regarding blood pressure, your blood pressure tends to go lower, not higher, as you play. For some people the more you strain the lower it goes. If it drops enough you will feel light headed. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | https://mmd.iammonline.com/index.php/musmed/article/download/400/273/677 |
This one is behind a paywall. Can you please post the abstract, title, page, volume, year and list of authors? |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1861 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:13 am Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Billy B wrote: | https://mmd.iammonline.com/index.php/musmed/article/download/400/273/677 |
This one is behind a paywall. Can you please post the abstract, title, page, volume, year and list of authors? |
I was able to download the doc with no problem and no pay. It seems pertinent to the OP question. Here is the summary of said article:
Conclusion
This case brought our attention to the possibility that regular,
prolonged Valsalva manoeuvres, such as in those who play
wind instruments actively and routinely, could be a factor in
the development and progression of Chiari malformation.
While this role must be taken into consideration, given the joy
that musicians gain from their hobby, it would be a difficult
decision to put forward a case for recommending the cessation
of their treasured activity. However, the development of such
headaches in brass players should result in consideration of
medical advice and at the very least, a screening for a Chiari
malformation. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 3:07 am Post subject: |
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@ldwoods: Thank you for posting the abstract!
For me, it is paywalled out. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3366 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:45 am Post subject: |
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I've put a copy of the article here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/headache.pdf
I will delete it in a few days, so download a copy if you want to save it. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Tivolian Regular Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 86 Location: Upstate New York
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:47 am Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | @ldwoods: Thank you for posting the abstract!
For me, it is paywalled out. |
That was the conclusion. Here is the abstract:
Abstract
There has been little attention in the literature to the ailments of horn players and more specifically the etiology of what has been reported by brass players as recurring headaches that may be distinctly related to playing practices. The following report illustrates the case of a 58-year-old male, a keen amateur musician, who presented with progressive Valsalva headaches. He reported that his symptoms became worse when playing the cornet, to the extent that, at presentation, he could no longer play for more than 5 minutes. After imaging, he was diagnosed with Chiari type 1 malformation. This case study looks at the relationship between the patient’s music activity and his intracranial pressure related to Valsalva manoeuvres, and furthermore explores the possible contributory link to his Chiari malformation. The occurrence of significant headaches in brass players, in particular when playing in the higher register, should prompt consideration of medical attendance and screening with MR scanning for Chiari malformation. <END>
Interestingly, this scientific paper actually cites a Trumpet Herald entry.
This is a case report of a single patient, who experienced other symptoms besides headache -- things like "deadness of the left arm" and visual blurring. Chiari malformations occur in roughly 1 out of 1000 people, so the OP shouldn't get alarmed by a glib posting of a link to a case report. But getting medical attention sounds like a good idea. _________________ Tivolian |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:52 am Post subject: |
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@JayKosta: Thank you! |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 995
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Louis Armstrong is rumored to have been told not to play high c or above (possibly anything Bove the staff) by a doctor later in life. I feel as though I heard that from the other Pops, Clint McLaughlin. If anyone has moreon the story perhaps they can mention it.
I completely agree with the above posts citing an issue with technique and backpressure. There really is a wide spectrum of physical work and ensuing pressure that can be employed by people ranging from uber-efficient to downright brute force. If someone is utilizing all of the tricks in their bag to play notes in the staff and perhaps a couple notes higher then by high c that player may be working themselves to their own physical limits.
Good luck and check out lessons outside of school with a competent trumpeter who may be able to look up close at what you are doing. |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 759 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:27 am Post subject: |
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You're over breathing. It's air quality not quantity. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Pressure Headaches |
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WinxonN44 wrote: | Hey y'all, I'm a junior in High School, I have a pretty useable range up to high e. My highest note is double a. Lately I've been progressing really fast but every time I play past E I get terrible headaches for a few minutes. I haven't had these since middle school and my question was what causes pressure headaches, and how can I get rid of them? Is it relaxing, too much tension, any thought is much appreciated! |
You have too much tension in your breath. Take a big breath and hold it. Feel that tension? That's what we don't want. A way to fix it is......
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88727 _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 759 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 8:10 am Post subject: |
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There's too much tension in your whole body. Instead of playing the note you're trying to muscle it. Work on your fundamentals. If you can't play the note at an mezzo forte with control ,then you don't own that note. Don't worry about playing it loud, just play it clean with control. Too much body tension along with over breathing is causing your headaches. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:36 am Post subject: |
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What is "over breathing"? _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 759 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Over breathing is inhaling more than the required amount of air needed. When accompanied with too much body tension , this usually causes headaches.
I found when I backed off on body tension and not trying to push as much air as is humanly possible trough the horn, I had no more headaches. In other words, don't try so hard. |
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