View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Rob Thomson New Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2023 Posts: 10 Location: Houston, Texas
|
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:05 pm Post subject: Dang near passed out playing Clarke first study today. |
|
|
So, I've recently started a routine based on Claude Gordon's principles. I'm easing into it, modeling my practice after John Mohan's comeback routine from a few years ago. I'm somewhat of a comeback player, so it makes sense.
Things are going well. I'm only working out of Irons and Clarke at the moment (SA is on order), but today I almost passed out as I was extending Clarke first study into the upper register. During the line that goes to F above High C, I felt really light-headed and had to stop.
Has anyone else experienced this? What do you recommend I do to mitigate it? Everything else seemed to be working.
Thanks!
Rob |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Hudson08 Regular Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2017 Posts: 28
|
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Start jogging |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4820
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2117 Location: Germany
|
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 9:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not to nitpick but in my Clarke the first excercise only goes to high C and not to F above high C. The highest phrase starts at F# and then goes up to high C. If that is the sequence you are talking about I’d either take a break of a day or two and/or see a teacher. I certainly am no high note player but Clarke 1 is a great warm up excercise for me and usually works very easily. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Destructo Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2022 Posts: 178
|
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
1. Clarke should only be taken as high as it can be with relative ease. If you're straining up there, it's doing more harm than good. The book stops at High C for study 1. You only extend higher on around pass 3 through the book.
- First pass, familiarity, fingers, ease.
- 2nd pass, finger speed, breath control.
- 3rd pass finger speed, breath control, range extension.
It'll take about 6months minimum to do a whole pass through the book, so don't rush.
2. Clarke should be played comfortably soft at first, and then softer still on a second pass through the book.
3. Don't try and do breath control in the upper register until you have excellent breath control in the lower register. Meaning you can do those clarke one lines 16 times in one breath. Playing softly in the upper register takes less air, and if you aren't used to essentially holding that lung full of air for a good long while, you're going to see stars when you have to do it while also compressing the air for the soft upper register playing. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
astadler Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2014 Posts: 132 Location: Little Rock, AR
|
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Feels like this should go without saying, regardless of the school of pedagogy: if you’re playing to the point of passing out, you need to do something different. Slow down, breathe more often, take time between exercises, sit down, something. There’s 0 reason to be anywhere near passing out while practicing the trumpet. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1036 Location: Europe
|
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
astadler wrote: | Feels like this should go without saying, regardless of the school of pedagogy: if you’re playing to the point of passing out, you need to do something different. Slow down, breathe more often, take time between exercises, sit down, something. There’s 0 reason to be anywhere near passing out while practicing the trumpet. |
Agreed. Imho, trumpet playing greatly benefits from the Scrooge McDuck approach (i.e. 'work smarter, not harder'). Treating it like a muscle building workout by pushing it to your limits every time can be counterproductive in the long run.
Hudson08 wrote: | Start jogging |
Not bad advice either. Though from personal experience I can tell it's hard to keep up a daily practice schedule if you have to spend an hour a day on both AND have a life besides that . _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7771 Location: Des Moines, IA area
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hudson08 wrote: | Start jogging |
Not bad advice either. Though from personal experience I can tell it's hard to keep up a daily practice schedule if you have to spend an hour a day on both AND have a life besides that .[/quote]
The key to this if still working is to not watch so darn much TV. And if you're retired, quit filling in all the supposed "free time" doing things for everyone else.
Easiest remedy- get a good German Shorthair and run 5 miles with her every day. (I'm speaking about a dog, here, too...) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 939 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've known John for years. He used to take his lesson with Claude right before me.
What John listed is not bad but you have to put things into proper perspective. We all could benefit from doing more steps from point A to Z. That's the point of systematic practice. Extending Clarke higher can be an easy thing later but it's not meant to be a range study like the Systematic Approach book and should be done with flexibility material so various parts of your practice routines compliment each other instead of tear things down.
Take a look at some of the YouTube videos from my conferences where I explain the 7 items and how to apply them. There's one presentation that goes into more details about practice routines. I also do that a little more in the final chapter of my ebook.
Studying with someone privately can accomplish more because all of us progress at different rates with various skills and we aren't always our best best critics. That's why Olympic athletes have coaches and it's good to have a trainer at the gym to catch form and technique to get the most of your work.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rob Thomson New Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2023 Posts: 10 Location: Houston, Texas
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hudson08 wrote: | Start jogging |
Now that you mention it, that's probably a good idea. _________________ Rob Thomson
____________
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS
Yamaha YTR-6345HGSII
LA Benge CG |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rob Thomson New Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2023 Posts: 10 Location: Houston, Texas
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jeff_Purtle wrote: | I've known John for years. He used to take his lesson with Claude right before me.
What John listed is not bad but you have to put things into proper perspective. We all could benefit from doing more steps from point A to Z. That's the point of systematic practice. Extending Clarke higher can be an easy thing later but it's not meant to be a range study like the Systematic Approach book and should be done with flexibility material so various parts of your practice routines compliment each other instead of tear things down.
Take a look at some of the YouTube videos from my conferences where I explain the 7 items and how to apply them. There's one presentation that goes into more details about practice routines. I also do that a little more in the final chapter of my ebook.
Studying with someone privately can accomplish more because all of us progress at different rates with various skills and we aren't always our best best critics. That's why Olympic athletes have coaches and it's good to have a trainer at the gym to catch form and technique to get the most of your work.
Jeff |
Thanks, Jeff. I've viewed many of your YouTube videos, which have been immensely helpful. I think I may have misinterpreted something I read. I do rest at least as much as I play. And I always start with flexibility work.
That said, Claude Gordon's methods are completely new to me and I know I have a great deal to learn. I can be impatient and greedy when it comes to gaining skill. Traits to be avoided. I'll slow it down.
I 100% agree with you about private study. And I'll check out your ebook here shortly.
It occurs to me that I haven't been doing the breathing exercises as often as recommended in Physical Approach. I reckon fixing that will also help. _________________ Rob Thomson
____________
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS
Yamaha YTR-6345HGSII
LA Benge CG
Last edited by Rob Thomson on Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 939 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I might not have made this clear enough. You don’t want to do two range studies a day. If you are pushing your limits with Clarke then you’re in effect doing that. For John or myself I go much higher on the range study like Systematic Approach. I usually get to an F or Ab above Double High C, which means a High F is no big deal for me. I could play a High F after 5 hours of playing and being deathly ill and it would still be no big deal. Claude would usually have students take things a little farther depending on what they could do. Another example, may be the Etude in Clarke 5 in one breath. I’ve done that and have a bunch of students that have done that. Claude had some students do it twice in one breath. One of my friends did that and I’ve almost done it being a line or two away from a second time. To try to do that the first time or two through the book would be bad. That’s some of the reason Claude shared the story about Clarke chasing him around the room for playing too weak when playing soft. Wind Power comes before Wind Control. Things must be developed in a proper order of priority.
I hope that helps it make more sense.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rob Thomson New Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2023 Posts: 10 Location: Houston, Texas
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
astadler wrote: | Feels like this should go without saying, regardless of the school of pedagogy: if you’re playing to the point of passing out, you need to do something different. Slow down, breathe more often, take time between exercises, sit down, something. There’s 0 reason to be anywhere near passing out while practicing the trumpet. |
Yeah, it was weird. I've been playing for 35 years and never been that close, hence the question. _________________ Rob Thomson
____________
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS
Yamaha YTR-6345HGSII
LA Benge CG |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rob Thomson New Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2023 Posts: 10 Location: Houston, Texas
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jeff_Purtle wrote: | I might not have made this clear enough. You don’t want to do two range studies a day. If you are pushing your limits with Clarke then you’re in effect doing that. For John or myself I go much higher on the range study like Systematic Approach. I usually get to an F or Ab above Double High C, which means a High F is no big deal for me. I could play a High F after 5 hours of playing and being deathly ill and it would still be no big deal. Claude would usually have students take things a little farther depending on what they could do. Another example, may be the Etude in Clarke 5 in one breath. I’ve done that and have a bunch of students that have done that. Claude had some students do it twice in one breath. One of my friends did that and I’ve almost done it being a line or two away from a second time. To try to do that the first time or two through the book would be bad. That’s some of the reason Claude shared the story about Clarke chasing him around the room for playing too weak when playing soft. Wind Power comes before Wind Control. Things must be developed in a proper order of priority.
I hope that helps it make more sense.
Jeff |
It does. And I should provide additional detail. In Irons, I do groups 4, 5, and 6 as further warmup after Chichowicz (sp?) flow studies (first two lines only) in all seven positions. I wouldn't consider the easy Irons work a range study. It just loosens things up and gets the blood flowing, wind moving, and tongue prepared for further playing.
Other than the Clarke first study (KTM for 5 more days, then K), this is all I'm doing. I don't have the SA book, yet. It arrives Monday.
Having said that, it sounds like a reasonable approach for the weekend may be to take Irons a bit further, little by little, and treat it as my range study, while taking Clarke to the written end and no further, for now, letting things develop more naturally. _________________ Rob Thomson
____________
Yamaha YTR-8335RGS
Yamaha YTR-6345HGSII
LA Benge CG |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 939 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
|
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Start on Lesson 2 in SA.
I need to do a video on chickowicz and flow studies.
Start with flexibility. Get Daily Trumpet Routines and start on lesson 3 and do all the models and spend at least 2 weeks on each lesson. Do the irons and similar stuff before or after that first. Don’t forget breathing exercises. Remember stuff that’s easy is going to change you over time even if you feel like you can play it well the first day. Don’t forget the kick on the upper notes and feel that click or slotting as you coordinate tongue level and wind power. That simple stuff starts to help you feel how it’s more air doing it and less lip.
You’re working for a knack of feeling how to play easily. That is what opens up so many things like endurance and range and a nice open free sound.
It’s about how you do it instead of just playing the notes.
For ITG next year I’m thinking of doing a couple free private lessons and streaming them so people can see what it’s like. It’s not instant but about 90 days of doing stuff this different way will really be noticeable around the 90 day point.
The CG way of doing things is more than just one routine and more about how to work through material in a way that gives you practical knowledge that’s so much more valuable that equipment or gadgets. That practical knowledge becomes yours and you’ll have something others don’t understand that haven’t done it. It’s about changing habits and getting the knack or feel. Everyone that does it long enough then sees what it does. Then, you can apply the principles to any book because you see a framework that is like a grid you see everything through.
Awesome that you mentioned KTM too.
Have fun with it and be patient.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|