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Which Trumpet |
Bb Trumpet |
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88% |
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C Trumpet |
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10% |
[ 5 ] |
Bb/C combination |
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2% |
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Total Votes : 50 |
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connicalman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1668 Location: West Medford, MA
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: |
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-iii-(
If the suggestion for a convertible C, the one I put a hearty 2nd toward, has thrown a wrench in your decision making, accept it as well-intentioned, and at worst, less than half mistaken. My logic is that the 1410 and 604 convertibles are built for use in C, aren't too expensive, and can be turned over fast enough for not much of a loss. (That Bach is way beyond either.) From any of them you'd learn the foibles inherent in keeping a trumpet of any key in tune. It may very well be you're already that good, or it could be too early in your development for that, but we don't know.
Since a trumpet is prob'ly the easiest instrument to sound loud, proud and badat at the same time, I have to ask one question: WHY does one of your teachers recommend the C? If you are that good, that proficient at trumpet already, then you could make a King Cleveland student model sound better than everyone else in your section. But we don't know.
Perhaps that C - inclined teacher sees the capacity for you to be a professional trumpet player. If so, then yes maybe you're ready for a C.
I'm thinking like a parent. I'm an uncle, and my nephew got the Jupiter 604. It is good for him, only a little confusing, but again, I know him, not you. Your teachers know you. Armed with all the great advice from TH, ask of that one teacher why he or she suggests a C for you. That is the rub. That is the essence of the situation. That suggestion from someone who knows you is why there's been so much contributed for your consideration here on TH.
Best to you! _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
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stevesf Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2010 Posts: 366 Location: San Francisco Bay Area
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: |
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upgrade your Bb first. It is the most essential horn for all types of playing.
You can still play classical repertoire on Bb....there is nothing wrong with that.
Heck Maurice Murphy played Bb most of the time and I think most of us agree he did pretty well.
You will want to upgrade your C too if you can...particularly if you do most of your work in an american orchestra (european orchestras seem to be more flexible in this matter)
There are some decent Bb/C combo horns out there but you have to be careful, there are many more duds with awful intonation issues .
Just my 2 cents _________________ Steve Shults
Yamaha 6310Z - Bb Trumpet
Bach Strad 229/25H - C Trumpet
Yamaha 631 (rose brass) - Flugel
Warburton 4 series mouthpieces
-------------------------------------------------
Know Music, Know Life....No Music, No Life |
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trpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2003 Posts: 165 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:45 pm Post subject: Bb or C |
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Hopefully to help with your question...
If you are a h.s. player, Definitely get a Bb. Period.
I'm trying to cut the chase, here.
I can tell you , my teacher in undergrad wouldn't even LET me get a C until junior year of college. His point was, learn to play the Bb well first, and Then pick up a C. It as advice that served me extremely well over the years. If you don't play a Bb well, a C only Compounds the problems.
(resistance, pitch, sound, etc.) I had to learn all the Strauss, Mahler, stuff on Bb first! Sure, It was a pain, but when I finally went to a C, it was a relatively easy switch. (ironically, as a result, E transposition from a Bb is one of my best...)
Don't kid yourself- you need a Bb FIRST.... Learn to play it, and THEN try the C.. Don't even THINK about a C 'till college. (with a good teacher.)
Just My 2 cents, but what I Strongly believe!!!
All the best,
Bob Earley
Philadelphia Orchestra
(Oh wait, the Bankrupt Philadelphia Orchestra) |
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J_Mase Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2010 Posts: 525
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Bb or C |
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trpt2 wrote: | Hopefully to help with your question...
If you are a h.s. player, Definitely get a Bb. Period.
I'm trying to cut the chase, here.
I can tell you , my teacher in undergrad wouldn't even LET me get a C until junior year of college. His point was, learn to play the Bb well first, and Then pick up a C. It as advice that served me extremely well over the years. If you don't play a Bb well, a C only Compounds the problems.
(resistance, pitch, sound, etc.) I had to learn all the Strauss, Mahler, stuff on Bb first! Sure, It was a pain, but when I finally went to a C, it was a relatively easy switch. (ironically, as a result, E transposition from a Bb is one of my best...)
Don't kid yourself- you need a Bb FIRST.... Learn to play it, and THEN try the C.. Don't even THINK about a C 'till college. (with a good teacher.)
Just My 2 cents, but what I Strongly believe!!!
All the best,
Bob Earley
Philadelphia Orchestra
(Oh wait, the Bankrupt Philadelphia Orchestra) |
I like this. Teachers are too prone to moving students onto horns they can't handle, and students want to progress faster than reality. In all honesty, I never caught onto D trumpet as I would've liked to. Piccolo was my easy horn, though.
How's the Philly situation looking? I've been trying to keep abreast of it through the internet, the union, etc. _________________ Jeff Mason |
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-iii-( Regular Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2011 Posts: 23 Location: America
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:34 am Post subject: |
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connicalman wrote: | \ Do everyone a favor. Reveal the level at which you play.
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I am slightly below most junior (highschool) players (because I started later), but I am going to play trumpet in college, and trumpet is my main focus. However I have no other musical training (except for a a year or two of piano that I have basically forgotten because it was when i was young). _________________ Bach Stradivarius Bb 37 |
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-iii-( Regular Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2011 Posts: 23 Location: America
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Bb or C Professional Grade Trumpet |
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[quote="Crazy Finn"] -iii-( wrote: |
What's your current horn?
How are you at transposing?
Have you spend much or any time on a C trumpet?
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I currently play on a intermediate Bb Jupiter.
I'm pretty good at transposing, it takes me some time when it is above 3 steps, but any thing below that I'm pretty adept at.
I haven't spent a significant amount of time on a C. (I dont even know if this counts but) I have played my teacher's C trumpet at times, but not very long (about 20 minutes total). No disrespect meant but, How do you spend time on a C trumpet unless you have one? (Just wondering...) _________________ Bach Stradivarius Bb 37 |
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-iii-( Regular Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2011 Posts: 23 Location: America
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Bb or C Professional Grade Trumpet? |
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royjohn wrote: | In what orchestras and what rep are you guys playing all on your Bb trumpets? Not doubting you, just interested in what situations you are in that this works for. |
Im not sure I understand the question, but Ill try to answer as best I can. The majority (by a tiny amount) of the music we play in the orchestra is for Bb trumpe. The other keys we tend to play in are C, F, and E (in order of decreasing frequency). _________________ Bach Stradivarius Bb 37
Last edited by -iii-( on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5865 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Bb or C |
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trpt2 wrote: | Hopefully to help with your question...
If you are a h.s. player, Definitely get a Bb. Period.
I'm trying to cut the chase, here.
I can tell you , my teacher in undergrad wouldn't even LET me get a C until junior year of college. His point was, learn to play the Bb well first, and Then pick up a C. It as advice that served me extremely well over the years. If you don't play a Bb well, a C only Compounds the problems.
(resistance, pitch, sound, etc.) I had to learn all the Strauss, Mahler, stuff on Bb first! Sure, It was a pain, but when I finally went to a C, it was a relatively easy switch. (ironically, as a result, E transposition from a Bb is one of my best...)
Don't kid yourself- you need a Bb FIRST.... Learn to play it, and THEN try the C.. Don't even THINK about a C 'till college. (with a good teacher.)
Just My 2 cents, but what I Strongly believe!!!
All the best,
Bob Earley
Philadelphia Orchestra
(Oh wait, the Bankrupt Philadelphia Orchestra) |
This. No question.
BTW, I have yet to find a Bb/C combo horn that doesn't suck on one side or the other...usually the Bb side (which you will use more as an undergrad at almost any college). _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Last edited by PH on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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-iii-( Regular Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2011 Posts: 23 Location: America
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: |
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connicalman wrote: | -iii-(
If the suggestion for a convertible C, the one I put a hearty 2nd toward, has thrown a wrench in your decision making, accept it as well-intentioned, and at worst, less than half mistaken. My logic is that the 1410 and 604 convertibles are built for use in C, aren't too expensive, and can be turned over fast enough for not much of a loss. (That Bach is way beyond either.) From any of them you'd learn the foibles inherent in keeping a trumpet of any key in tune. It may very well be you're already that good, or it could be too early in your development for that, but we don't know.
WHY does one of your teachers recommend the C? If you are that good, that proficient at trumpet already, then you could make a King Cleveland student model sound better than everyone else in your section. But we don't know.
Perhaps that C - inclined teacher sees the capacity for you to be a professional trumpet player. If so, then yes maybe you're ready for a C.
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About the C/Bb Convertible, I have spoken to my regular, weekly teacher about it and he thinks it kind of too outside the box for me right now. But thank you for the suggestion.
My other (monthly, Im gonna call him Teacher B) teacher suggested that I get a C because I am mainly an orchestral player, that is my focus. That is what I enjoy the most. I must also inform everyone that while I was studying with a past student (Teacher C) of Teacher B, Teacher C said that Teacher B like to move students on C trumpets and larger mouthpeices. When Teacher B helps with the trumpets at my orchestra he always suggest that everyone should get a C horn. So probably has little to do with my personal skill as a trumpet player. I should also metion that Teacher B is still a great teacher and a great trumpeter.
Teacher B has said that I do have the potential to be a pro trumpeter, (hope I dont sound like Im bragging) but I dont think that is why he suggested a C.
PS sorry if all the differnt teachers confuses anybody, its complicated lol _________________ Bach Stradivarius Bb 37 |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I am slightly below most junior (highschool) players (because I started later), but I am going to play trumpet in college, and trumpet is my main focus. However I have no other musical training (except for a a year or two of piano that I have basically forgotten because it was when i was young).
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The best answer given:
Quote: | If you are a h.s. player, Definitely get a Bb. Period.
I'm trying to cut the chase, here.
I can tell you , my teacher in undergrad wouldn't even LET me get a C until junior year of college. His point was, learn to play the Bb well first, and Then pick up a C. It as advice that served me extremely well over the years. If you don't play a Bb well, a C only Compounds the problems.
(resistance, pitch, sound, etc.) I had to learn all the Strauss, Mahler, stuff on Bb first! Sure, It was a pain, but when I finally went to a C, it was a relatively easy switch. (ironically, as a result, E transposition from a Bb is one of my best...)
Don't kid yourself- you need a Bb FIRST.... Learn to play it, and THEN try the C.. Don't even THINK about a C 'till college. (with a good teacher.)
Just My 2 cents, but what I Strongly believe!!!
All the best,
Bob Earley
Philadelphia Orchestra |
Emphasis mine!
Quote: | I currently play on a intermediate Bb Jupiter. |
You need a good trumpet.
Either a Bach or Kanstul equivalent with bore correction and PVA, or a Flip Oakes Celebration. There are others you could get by with, but not the one you have. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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ltkije1966 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 1229 Location: Chicago
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:28 am Post subject: |
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If you have a teacher you trust then let them tell you if your current Bb needs to be replaced any time soon. If it does then a Bb is what you need. If you don't have cash to burn you can't beat a good use Strad or Yamaha 6000-series horn.
From what you've said in other posts there's no way you should even be considering any other keyed horn. When your technique progresses a bit more you'll be in a much better position to manage the grief that is the C trumpet. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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-iii-(
In 30+ years of teaching (I think, I've forgotten how many years, really) I've had 3 high school students go onto C trumpet. Each one was technically adept, secure in their playing, and had a demonstrable need to play on a C, not only for orchestral playing, but for solo, chamber and ensemble music as well.
In this case, you're getting told to get a C, 'cause that's one person's default position. This has nothing to do with you the player, so I'd forget the advice as fast as possible, and go sit down with your Bb and get practicing. Save some $$$ and upgrade to a good 'professional' Bb. Keep practicing.
Bob Early gave you some spot on advice - take it and send him a Christmas card, it's the word from a man who is right where you want to go to.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Ubungstickle Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2010 Posts: 186 Location: New York City, New York
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well I use C-trumpet for orchestra so I only practice orchestra music with C-trumpet. But if a part calls for cornet I'll use my Bb.
But I think many use Bb trumpet for fundamental practice and solo work, unless you're playing c trumpet solo work. So I would invest in a Bb
Also you can play music that people would usually play on C trumpet with a Bb, but you cant play Bb music with a C. It's like a one way street _________________ Yamaha YTR-4335G Bb
Yamaha YTR-9445CHS C
Schilke P5/4 Picc |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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-iii-(,
With all due respect to your teacher, unless he attended ITG this past year and/or has played a 1410, he really isn't qualified to make an assessment. Prior Bb/C convertibles have been less than successful, but the new Kanstul does both keys well.
The timbre may be an issue in a professional setting, but not so much in a college. The responsiveness may fall slightly short of the best Cs and the Bb is a little unusual, as that goes, but for a modest investment, you get two very playable horns.
But, many teachers seem to be skeptical of anything new...
Personally, if I were in college, I would consider it carefully. I would keep it, too, as a backup and chamber trumpet after going pro and buying a top-level instrument.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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J_Mase Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2010 Posts: 525
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: |
You need a good trumpet.
Either a Bach or Kanstul equivalent with bore correction and PVA, or a Flip Oakes Celebration. There are others you could get by with, but not the one you have. |
Can you guys stop trying to sell Flip's horns in almost every reply within a thread? How much money is he paying you to do this?
Nothing against Flip's horns, but it's almost like clockwork that a few of you do this. _________________ Jeff Mason |
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Don Lee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 730 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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J_Mase wrote: | crzytptman wrote: |
You need a good trumpet.
Either a Bach or Kanstul equivalent with bore correction and PVA, or a Flip Oakes Celebration. There are others you could get by with, but not the one you have. |
Can you guys stop trying to sell Flip's horns in almost every reply within a thread? How much money is he paying you to do this?
Nothing against Flip's horns, but it's almost like clockwork that a few of you do this. |
Good point. Might I suggest every other thread? Or maybe every third? |
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andybharms Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 636 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | The timbre may be an issue in a professional setting, but not so much in a college. |
Why wouldn't you want to sound like a professional in college? Is it not training to be a professional? Not everybody parties on his/her parents' dime... _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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J_Mase wrote: | crzytptman wrote: |
You need a good trumpet.
Either a Bach or Kanstul equivalent with bore correction and PVA, or a Flip Oakes Celebration. There are others you could get by with, but not the one you have. |
Can you guys stop trying to sell Flip's horns in almost every reply within a thread? How much money is he paying you to do this?
Nothing against Flip's horns, but it's almost like clockwork that a few of you do this. |
First of all, there's only one of me. Second, how many horns are mentioned in that post? Third, in the context of the sentence Flip Oakes trumpets already have correct bore and PVA. Fourth, there are more noble reasons to do some things than merely for money. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: Bb or C Professional grade trumpet |
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J Mase wrote:
Quote: | Can you guys stop trying to sell Flip's horns in almost every reply within a thread? How much money is he paying you to do this? |
It's not about money, it's about passionate adherence, akin to cultism. I'd call it the WT Mafia again, but that would set off another passionate argument. I think the way it's done does more to turn people off to the WT than to turn them on, but that's just my feeling. I guess it is some kind of advertisement when people just can't let it go. I understand Flip's are very fine instruments, notwithstanding. And blobless, you know. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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