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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:08 am Post subject: |
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trumpet addict wrote: | ......For the second quote thingy, that's only if there's streaking on the valves where the original owner used incorrect hand position, causing the valves to rub against the valve casing, by opening up the valve casing a little, it ensures that the valve won't rub against the casing. |
I'm no tech, but I don't think it's that simple, I don't believe that "opening up the valve casing a little" is necessarily correct. I'm only mentioning this because there is the possibility that the O.P. could take his horn to a less than qualified repair guy somewhere, who just might worsen the problem. I know that, unfortunately, REALLY good brass technicians are not located everywhere, which is why I have had to send horns out of state on more than one occasion to have them CORRECTLY repaired / improved. (Doctor Valve, Tom Green and Schilke, to be exact in my case).
Brad361 _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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trumpet addict Regular Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2010 Posts: 48
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: |
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obviously if I had a bad repair tech, I wouldn't bring it to him.
I am fortunate enough to live in a state that has a good repair technician so it's not a problem for me. I see where you're coming from though.
Last edited by trumpet addict on Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: |
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trumpet addict wrote: | PakWaan wrote: | trumpet addict wrote: | It would seem that an older horn would need thinner oil |
Actually, it's the opposite. Older worn valves need thicker oil, as thinner oil doesn't fill the extra space created by years of wear. Hetman's Classic (#3) is a good example.
trumpet addict wrote: | have the repair man grind open the valve casing a little |
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Hmmm, I have heard the opposite. Well, guess ya learn somethin' every day.
For the second quote thingy, that's only if there's streaking on the valves where the original owner used incorrect hand position, causing the valves to rub against the valve casing, by opening up the valve casing a little, it ensures that the valve won't rub against the casing. |
That's what the oil is for. The oil creates a thin film so that the piston can slide along the case. It is when there is too much room between the piston and casing that the ends of the piston can cock sideways, gall the case and the valve sticks.
When there is too great a clearance, the oil runs off or evaporates. Synthetics are designed to stay on the surfaces, but can build up and cause their own issues (i.e. silicone).
The streaking is normal for close-fitting pistons and shows the desired mating process of the two surfaces. When all the wear is at the top and bottom of the piston, it shows that there is too much clearance and the piston is rocking in its case. Or, it shows that the piston isn't cylindrical. Either way, the edges of the piston are scraping away the oil film and creating stiction.
So, either the pistons are worn and need to be re-built, or there is some sort of build up at the molecular level. I've had both happen at the same time with my Benge.
One more thing. If there is a build up of gunk in the pipes between, before and/or after the valve casings that hasn't been thoroughly cleaned out, it will cause the same gummy sticking.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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trumpet addict Regular Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2010 Posts: 48
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |
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^^^^^^^
Agreed, Only if the valve is at an angle due to improper hand position, oil won't always fix the underlying problem. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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trumpet addict wrote: | obviously if I had a bad repair tech, I wouldn't bring it to him.
I am fortunate enough to live in a state that has a good repair technician so it's not a problem for me. I see where you're coming from though. |
And obviously, a bad repair tech is probably not going to advertise himself as such. If you know for certain your guy is qualified, have at it. But there are a lot of repair people out there who are fine taking a dent out of a kid's student level horn, but not a lot beyond that sort of relatively simple repair.
My opinion is, someone who really knows what he is doing will not simply "open the valve casings a little", I just do not believe it's that simple. What then happens to compression, proper fit and seal? Loose valves are not necessarily at all good valves. But again, I don't KNOW, which is why I use guys who have very good reputations for being very competent. And no, they often are not cheap, but we get what we pay for most of the time.
Brad361 _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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trumpet addict Regular Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2010 Posts: 48
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed again, we always have to look at the issue from multiple perspectives. That's a good point about the proper fit and seal, I would ask the repair tech about that and see if he had a valid answer. |
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PakWaan Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Posts: 415 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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For a description of what a valve job entails, why not ask the man who spent 20 years as the valve troubleshooting expert at Schilke?
http://doctorvalve.com/Services.html#whatisVO _________________ Taylor Chicago Standard • Getzen 900 Eterna Classic • Yamaha 731 flugelhorn
--- Sold everything else --- |
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JazzCatDRP Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Posts: 89
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I ordered some Warburton Clean-Stroke, and it arrived today. I'll give that a whirl and see if that helps.
A previous poster mentioned that Bauerfiend valves shouldn't ever need rebuilt. In contact with the previous owner, I recently found out that my horn does indeed have Bauerfiend valves. What kind of a difference would that make in my decision making if the Clean Stroke doesn't work, if any? |
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garpo3000 Veteran Member
Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 160 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I've always kind of had a similar sticky problem with my B&S Challenger. I've tried many things. It's not the greatest horn or in the greatest shape so there's no need to take it to Dr. Valve or anything.
Putting new springs in it helped, but there is still something not right.
Is it possible that the valve guides are the wrong size?
When I was younger (and less enlightened) this horn was in the shop and I know they replaced the valve guides. Is it possible that they just used generic Bach guides and those might be slightly different in shape or size and that might be causing the valves to stick? _________________ Conn Vintage One 1B46R-SP
B&S Challenger I 3137 |
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Geo7084 Regular Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2020 Posts: 11 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: sluggish valves |
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I've struggled with a sluggish third valve on a vintage Olds horn. I tried various oils, cleaned the horn in between each oil brand, stronger springs and even thought about sending it out for a valve rebuild. I think this type of problem is common, but I also think that there probably may be many causes for this and if the diagnosis isn't obvious it can take some time to figure out. My local tech, after trying several things, finally buffed the inside ring that the valve guides go on in the valve casing on the bottom, and immediately under it, very gently. He suspected that there might be a tiny burr hanging up the action, as the valve moved fine except for the final quarter inch or so. Presto, problem cured!! I was so frustrated for weeks trying to deal with this and I'm fortunate my repair man figured it out. _________________ "Life without music would be a major drag!" Joe Schmiteck, Unemployed Philosopher. |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 667 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:10 am Post subject: |
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I had a slow 3th valve on a Conn 22B. It turned out that the previous owner once sat (!) on the horn and that the 3th pump pushed the lower side of the leadpipe a little off thus creating tension on the valve casting, mostly on the 3th valve
I bended it back (is not so easy though) and problem was solved
So it is also a good idea to check if there is no unneccesary tension on the valve machine, check for alignment _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2474
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: |
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JazzCatDRP wrote: | Thanks for all the suggestions. I ordered some Warburton Clean-Stroke, and it arrived today. I'll give that a whirl and see if that helps.
A previous poster mentioned that Bauerfiend valves shouldn't ever need rebuilt. In contact with the previous owner, I recently found out that my horn does indeed have Bauerfiend valves. What kind of a difference would that make in my decision making if the Clean Stroke doesn't work, if any? |
The only valves that never need to be rebuilt are valves that never get much use. Harder piston against softer brass casing, and since no one can actually, consistently, press every valve straight down every time, will result in loss of brass from the casing wall over time.
It's not a problem, its the way it works. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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PMonteiro Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2020 Posts: 130 Location: Hudson Valley
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Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Fun story: the 3rd valve on my Yamaha 2320 used to stick for unknown reasons. It got so annoying that I took sandpaper to the piston. Somehow it worked and the compression is still intact. This was years ago when I was less wise, and I would not suggest trying it, especially on a nicer horn. _________________ YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I am less convinced that a well oiled valve will rub against the valve casing.
Oils are long molecules of hydocarbons and these long chains are very strong and as long as they remain intact they act as a robust buffer between metal surfaces. They slip against each other and that is how oil functions.
In motor engines for example the extreme forces exerted on the oil breaks the molecules down over time and the oil then loses its ability to keep the metal surfaces apart. An oil change is then needed.
The longer an oil change is delayed the less long chain molecules remain and wear can happen.
in a trumpet there are relatively low forces exerted on the oil and I would not expect the molecules to break down. I would expect the oil to keep the metal surfaces apart.
From an engineering perspective oils in automobile engines withstand forces in excess of 1700 pounds and they do not break down and allow bearings to rub against each other..
For wear between the valve and wall I would look elsewhere to explain it than the oil allowing contact and wear.
I am not going to speculate on this. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3366 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Bflatman wrote: | I am less convinced that a well oiled valve will rub against the valve casing.
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For wear between the valve and wall I would look elsewhere to explain it than the oil allowing contact and wear. ... |
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A well-made valve casing and piston should always have enough clearance for a very thin film of oil between the piston and the casing (all surfaces, in all positions).
The oil should have enough 'cling' so it remains on all the potential contact surfaces for a reasonable amount of time before more oil needs to be added. And there needs to be enough oil to provide the film on all the surfaces.
If either of the above is missing, it's the lack of the oil film that results in rubbing. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I am in complete agreement Jay. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm using light springs due to a finger injury, and have to use the thinnest oil possible to keep the return fast. Mineral spirits is the thinnest I know of. I use the odorless type (it's not odorless). Avoid the 'green' mineral spirits substitute. The downside of using mineral spirits is the valves need oil once or twice per day. It's low cost though. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Since this thread started eleven years ago and the OP has apparently long ago left the building without weighing in on what actually happened, I don't think we will ever know the answer to the story. A lot of good answers were given, esp. the ones about tension or bending in the valve casing. My own thought, which no one brought up, was that this Harrelson really wasn't played that much and the valves weren't initially lapped enough and were just a little too tight. Might have been fine in the shop, but as oil built up, they started to stick...
This is a good reason to use a very good, insightful brass tech who could measure the valves and valve casings with a micrometer and whatever that gizmo is that measures valve casings to the thousandth of an inch or less. I've even got a set of them, but can't remember what you call them. If the valves appear too tight, they can easily be lapped a little, but if they aren't, lapping them would just result in leaky valves which wouldn't last as long.
Also, it's only an experienced tech who would know to check for casing alignment and other out of the way causes. Tho' I am a confirmed DIY guy, this is one case where I would draw the line at a little cleaning and trying out a few oils and then, if that didn't work, take it to a master tech. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3366 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Beyond16 wrote: | ... and have to use the thinnest oil possible to keep the return fast. Mineral spirits is the thinnest I know of. I use the odorless type (it's not odorless). ... |
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I have used ULTRA-PURE LAMP OIL - the 'colorless' and 'odorless' version. It is quite thin, and is basically highly refined kerosene (paraffin). It seems to be slightly thinner than Al Cass valve oil.
This 'lamp oil' is NOT related to the UltraPure line of valve oils - completely different companies (I believe). _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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ericmpena Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2021 Posts: 280 Location: Kyle, TX
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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Then I considered the possibility that the problem was not the valve surface, that the problem was the valve guide. So I oiled the path on the valve where the valve guide moves and that fixed the problem. |
My 2nd valve has been bugging me for 2 days now. It kept getting drag on the upstroke and I couldn't figure out why! I had tried everything except putting oil on the path of the valve guide.
I did that and the drag is completely gone.
Thanks for this recommendation. I used to oil that area a long time ago, but at some point I started to feel that it was unnecessary. Now I know better. _________________ Thane Performing Artist
www.youtube.com/ericmpena
https://thanetrumpets.com/ |
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