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GR Beta Testing Results


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Which GR Rim tested best during the GR Beta Tests?
Red
48%
 48%  [ 18 ]
Yellow
16%
 16%  [ 6 ]
Blue
35%
 35%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 37

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Shelbywmccarty
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how much long do we have to wait brian?
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silverhorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shelbywmccarty wrote:
how much long do we have to wait brian?


Bri told me that the results may be coming very soon. Can't wait to see! lol
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR and I will be in Dallas this week at Bert Truax's Trumpet Camp, then later in the week I am in Connecticuit with a Blues Brothers show. Perhaps when all of the running around is over, I may get the results up here. Thanks!

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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Shelbywmccarty
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hurry i wana buy the red in a ms
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless I scanned over the posts too quickly, it appears that maybe only a couple of you guys mentioned the effect on range.

I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences with the different rim profiles with respect to the effect on both your high and low range limits.

Thanks
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_Daff wrote:
Unless I scanned over the posts too quickly, it appears that maybe only a couple of you guys mentioned the effect on range.

I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences with the different rim profiles with respect to the effect on both your high and low range limits.

Thanks


Range should not be a huge issue because all the backbores, cups, ID's and alphas are the same. This test is about profile fit. Most people will have close to the same range if its only a question of rim profile. While the rims differ, none are extreme on either end of the bell curve. Depending on your vibrating surface the profile can add some support to aid range but at the same time there is the possibility that it could impinge the lip. If the profile impinges the lip there is a good chance that accuracy and a vibrant tone will be hampered, therefore, a trade off for a few high notes. Rim profile can also stop vibrations up high for some players. This is dependent on the person, horn and mouthpiece. The system is the key as we are all different.

Low range, again if the lip is free to vibrate it will come out, provided the horn is a good match. GR could pass all the playing tests on all mouthpieces although he uses the G rim. The Blue was good down low and up high, the down fall was the vibrancy, a bit less due to the inner bite area. That bite on the Blue kept the lips together for GR giving a great instant attack but hampered some vibrancy. The Yellow required more thought on the low notes to keep the lips from coming apart and a noted adding of pressure for the upper register due to the profile. The Red was the best of the 3 for GR even though he doesn't play the rim. It was most even, vibrant, and accurate as well as the fullest sounding. That is for GR! The Blue was good and everything was more compact due to the way the lips were held by the rim. For about almost 1/3 of the players the Blue rim was a benefit. Range was about the same for GR on all test mpcs. The GR "G" rim was not one of the test rims. The G rim is even better for GR than the Red but it would be hard for most people to note the difference unless trained to give the playing tests.

Remember, everything on these beta test samples is pretty close (the math) to the same but the rim profile. If we started changing other parameter this area of range would be impacted much more.

The goal here was not the impact of any specific area like high or low range but more general. How the profiles allowed each player to perform the tests provided. Scott from the Horn Section (GR trained consultant) made note that if you completed all testing materials in a GR Mouthpiece Consultation the results would be more accurate. Scott is correct and highly skilled at this technique. Many of the test subjects are just being exposed to this kind of thinking for the 1st time and it would not be fair to overload them with material. Scott's comments are valid and appreciated. The consultant group is in constant communication with us and the sharing of knowledge leads to better and better techniques.

Gary Radtke
www.grmouthpieces.com
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J-Walk
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. Scriver wrote:
Rim profile can also stop vibrations up high for some players.


This was the case for me on the red. Much like the Paul Butcher rim, it performed very well (especially attacks) but shut things down above the staff for me. Yellow had the opposite effect of not allowing me security up high based on my facial structure/teeth, and blue seemed to grip comfortably in the high register and allow my embouchure the ability to function more efficiently and freely. How we can adapt to various rims is definitely unique to each of us. I'm looking forward to learning more about these pieces, Gary and Brian... Thanks for the chance to learn with you!
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-Walk wrote:
B. Scriver wrote:
Rim profile can also stop vibrations up high for some players.


This was the case for me on the red. Much like the Paul Butcher rim, it performed very well (especially attacks) but shut things down above the staff for me. Yellow had the opposite effect of not allowing me security up high based on my facial structure/teeth, and blue seemed to grip comfortably in the high register and allow my embouchure the ability to function more efficiently and freely. How we can adapt to various rims is definitely unique to each of us. I'm looking forward to learning more about these pieces, Gary and Brian... Thanks for the chance to learn with you!


This is what I was referring to in my previous post.

For what it's worth, my experience is that accuracy, and maybe even core, is improved with a sharper bite, with the bi-product of a more restricted range and flexibility. Conversely, a soft bite diminishes my accuracy, diminishing core, while enhancing ease of range.

Since accuracy prevails, I've very recently switched to a bit sharper, 'tweener' bite. The transition seems to be paying off so far. Consequently, the beta testing is happening at a convenient time for me. The mp's are due to arrive within a week or two. Having owned a GR with virtually every bite Gary makes at one time or another , it will be interesting to have them all lined up in a row for a few days.
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trumpetdon
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. What horn are you playing now?

I used a German Destino Bb for the test.

2. What mouthpiece are you playing now?

Custom GR, program 1592, #2 backbore, standard length and blank.

3. What is your playing level? (1 to 5) 1 is a new comeback player and 5 is a professional trumpet player.

I play for a living, so I guess that makes me a 5. Some days are better than others!

4. Playing test #1, breath attack on middle G.

XBRY (all very similar, easy to do)

5. Playing test #2, articulation 16ths -dotted 1/8th 16th

BXRY (all excellent, hard to pick)

6. Playing test #3, low soft slurs.

BXRY. (Several years ago, with mis-matched equipment this type of excerpt was an interesting challenge. Now it went without a flaw with all four mouthpieces. I liked the sound of all of them except yellow).

7. Playing test #4, intervals, articulation, intonation, and accuracy.

BXRY (all were very easy)

8. Playing Test #5, Grandioso, loud to soft.

XBRY (XBR all acceptable. Had the most control with X)

9. Which rim felt the best?

Blue (all felt very good)

10. Which rim performed the best?

blue

11. Which rim felt the biggest?

They all felt close, but yellow had a soft bite feel, which gave it the largest feel. My rim feels larger than all of them though.

12. Which rim felt the smallest?
blue

13. Your comments:
All played very well. Performance differences minor, nearly imperceptible with excerpts 1, 2, 3. Bigger differences in test 4, bigger still in test 5. Test 5 yielded the only poor match, yellow. Other excerpts would be needed for me.

I believe all three have a smaller cup volume than I play, but the sound is similar. Red and blue had better low notes and high notes than my mpc. Both extremes are cleaner, less gunk in the sound. Red had a great sound, and I like the little feeling of a little extra room, but was a little harder to control overall though.

All three had superb instant attack and soft response. Red had more color and fullness, but blue was easier to play.

Yellow had an extra high note, perhaps the softer inner bite allowed for use of pressure (a short term solution!).

I tried blue and red on two Eb trumpets (Schilke E3L with a bigger Schilke bell, and Bach/Melk 229) and they were an improvement over my mouthpiece.
I do not have the right mouthpiece yet for Eb trumpet. Gary, Ill have to talk to you about this!
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Kim Pensyl
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My results for the Beta Test are as follows.

Horn: Mt. Vernon Bach ML
Current mouthpiece: GR 3M and Custom Greg Black

Initial impressions: I first believed that the Blue model would prove to be the best mouthpiece for me. The sound seemed full with a lot of depth, especially in the mid to low end. The Red was very quick with response and vibrant all over the horn, but felt a bit thinner than the Blue. The Yellow seemed too thin and bright for me.

Playing thru the selected test passages confirmed my initial impressions. However, the Blue ended up feeling a bit dull compared to the Red.

The Red worked well in a small group jazz setting and in a big band with a nice amount of overtones, clarity, and vibrant sound, yet not too bright and for the most part controllable. Sometimes the Red seemed like it might lack depth, but if I control the air more the sound stayed together. The Blue did not work as well in the big band section for balance and felt like more work, but the sound was quite nice in the small group. The Yellow did not do it for me in any of these settings.

The response of the GR mouthpieces is one of the best features and rewards the player. I like the Red a lot, but would love it 100% if I could always get the depth of sound I am looking for. It seems somewhere between the Blue and Red would do it.

So, my overall ranking:
Red, Blue, Yellow

I would like to thank Brian for this opportunity and for letting me take part in the test.

Thanks,

Kim Pensyl
Assistant Professor of Jazz Studies
College-Conservatory of Music
University of Cincinnati
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK,
Here we go:

Red = GR Standard Rim
Yellow = GR 3 Series Rim
Blue = GR Beta Rim

The Beta rim is basically a reverse engineered Bach 3 style rim contour. It seemed to receive numerous accolades till we actually included it in a blind test. The Standard rim (Red) was way out in front followed by the GR 3 Series rim (Yellow) till I posted a layover on the GR website.

http://grmouthpieces.com/layovers.htm

So my friends to date, this is what we see:

Blind testing clearly showed that the GR Standard rim was far superior for most players, followed by the 3 series rim. The reverse engineered Bach 3 was in the dust.

Once players saw the rim layovers, their minds started working and the "blind" test was thrown out the window. Results started to change with the Beta (Blue) rim gaining votes. We have seen this numerous times with players who play differently on gear they "think" they need. Interesting!

Now, let's see what happens to the rest of the votes as the "full reveal" has been dropped.

Ladies and gents, this is not just a rim beta test, this is also Psychology 101. Let's see what happens!

PS-We have a lot of data form people not posting on the Trumpet Herald. Don't be fooled by the numbers on the TH or only the TH beta testers as we have much more info.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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Trptbenge
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bri,

The blind test results verify my testing. It is no surprise that the Red and my mouthpiece, a GR66M, tied on the horn that I did my GR consult on and were 1 & 2 on the other horns I tested them on.

I think the psychology of people concluding what they expect to conclude extends to horns as well.

Again, thank you for the opportunity to be part of the test.

Mike
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wilcox96
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did my testing prior to seeing any lay overs. That is a good thing...for me. I already mentioned in a previous post how I "thought" I knew what I was after. ha.

After seeing the reveal... honestly, I am marginally dissapointed. Not at GR...not a chance....but a the fact that I also confirmed my suspicion that how a rim (for "this" example/experiment) might work/feel differently, depending on any combination of "other" components...ie: cup shape. Therefore....what I thought might be a different rim choice for my existing components, ends up being what I have already. I will say that Brian and I have exchanged e-mails and there is one thing he told me about my cup (mostly the alpha angle) that may be the trick.

Anyway... this was still VERY fun and educational...albeit depressing. ha. That Blue was very comfortable. I just didn't like the sound I got with the cup that was on it. Who knows...with a different combination...I'll wager there'd be different results.
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BrassClass
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GR Technologies Beta Test
Evaluation Score Card

Instructions.

Please enter your answers on this form. Save it and e-mail the completed form to info@grmouthpieces.com.


1. What horn are you playing now?

Bach 37 with Bob Reeves alignment.

2. What mouthpiece are you playing now?
GR 65.6 MS (based on a consultation with Brian with limited pieces)


3. What is your playing level? (1 to 5) 1 is a new comeback player and 5 is a professional trumpet player.
4

Scoring for the remainder of the questions.

Yellow = Y, Red = R, Blue =B, your mouthpiece =X

Score each best to worst.

(Example Y, R, B, X) Y=best X=worst


4. Playing test #1, breath attack on middle G.
B, X, R, Y


5. Playing test #2, articulation 16ths -dotted 1/8th 16th.
X, R, Y, B


6. Playing test #3, low soft slurs.
B, X, Y, R


7. Playing test #4, intervals, articulation, intonation, and accuracy.
B, X, R, Y


8. Playing Test #5, Grandioso, loud to soft.
Y, R, B, X


9. Which rim felt the best?
X, B, R, Y


10. Which rim performed the best?
X, Y, B, R


11. Which rim felt the biggest?
Y


12. Which rim felt the smallest?
R


13. Your comments:

All the pieces played great! On some of the tests it was hard to pick the best between two but did my best without knowing which piece were which. Based on my consultation and GR experience, I have usually preferred pieces with a high alpha angle. Although I play a 65.6 MS currently the Blue piece won out in 3 of the tests. I am very curious what these pieces are.

Thanks,
BrassClass
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J-Walk
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. Scriver wrote:
Blind testing clearly showed that the GR Standard rim was far superior for most players, followed by the 3 series rim. The reverse engineered Bach 3 was in the dust...

...Ladies and gents, this is not just a rim beta test, this is also Psychology 101. Let's see what happens!


I guess that I'll have to stay back here in the dust then ... It was clear before any knowledge of the rims was shared, that the Blue worked/sounded best for me. As for Psychology 101, I guess it depends how the beta testers approached the test. I did not have any pre-concieved notions about the three test pieces, so there was not a psychological element to the testing for me (and since I happen to enjoy all of the colors presented in the naming of the models, I don't think that even the color choices had much of an effect on me!). I for one could care less what a piece looks like, what the specs are, or how many famous players play a similar model. I don't care about the advertised details or the hype; what I do care about is how a piece fits me and my equipment, and whether or not it allows me to play more musically.

I'm glad to have been part of this beta test, and it does not surprise me that the Blue is a reverse engineered Bach 3 rim. I've always had a great deal of success on that rim, and it is also nice to know that the Blue rim gave me the benefits of that Bach 3 feel with a much better playing mouthpiece than the Bach 3 series that I left many years ago. As for the Red and Yellow, they may be best for most, but the Blue was the clear winner for my goofy face and horns

Thanks again Gary and Brian for doing this!
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romajore
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:08 pm    Post subject: Curiosity killed the cat and maybe a trumpet player or two Reply with quote

I'm really curious. How are or are the test pieces different for a standard GR M cup #2 BB mouthpiece other than the rim? I play tested the 66 series and my standard mouthpiece is a GR 66M. It certainly seemed like the red rim felt and played differently from my standard 66M. Thanks
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,

I sincerely appreciate the "reveal" and allowing me to participate in your test!

J-Walk makes a good point and after choosing the Blue MP...I too am more than willing to stay back in the "dust".

Based on all of the statistical Design of Experiments (D.O.E.) I have conducted in the Fortune 200 company I work with during my (20)+ years in Quality Assurance...to me, it appears (based on the fragmented results only that I have read on this post) there is a possibility of the following hypothesis...

People who play exclusively on Bach MPs (or have for many years) liked the Blue MP that according to you is in fact a copy of a Bach MP Rim.

Note: If based on your data, the confidence level is high...I would not be surprised by this.

Those who currently play a GR MP tend to favor either the Red or Yellow which is more similar to a GR Rim.

Note: Again...if based on your data, the confidence level is high, I would not be surprised by this either.

Based on all of the data you have (that is in addition to the data on TH) have you identified the possible correlation noted above?

Due to the fact that I (N=1) was born and raised on Bach MPs for well over 25+ years (right or wrong...good or bad...just a fact...not to say they are the best)...and I chose the Blue MP...(possibly due to my chops that have "grown" / "used to" / "adjusted to / into" the Bach rims)...I have to believe their might possibly be a correlation.

I would be very interested in a comparison of the testers currently played MP against the color MP that they chose.

This could easily be understood by creating a Matrix of MPs...current / vs. color MP chosen.

I want to be crystal clear...I am in NO WAY saying that GR MPs are inferior to Bach MPs...I am only questioning if the constants of this experiment skewed the results by introducing a factor that was not originally considered at the start of this test.

Just a little extra food for thought...
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bkonstans1
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my results:

Without going into much detail, I thought the yellow rim felt the biggest and the red rim felt the smallest. I liked the red rim for commercial/jazz stuff and the yellow rim for classical/legit stuff.

As to what _Daff posted earlier, I definitely saw an increase in my useable range on the red rim. My overall range didn't change much, but I found I could use the higher part of my range much easier on the red rim. Just my 2c.

I'll post my full results later.
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silverhorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. Scriver wrote:
OK,
Here we go:

Red = GR Standard Rim
Yellow = GR 3 Series Rim
Blue = GR Beta Rim

The Beta rim is basically a reverse engineered Bach 3 style rim contour. It seemed to receive numerous accolades till we actually included it in a blind test. The Standard rim (Red) was way out in front followed by the GR 3 Series rim (Yellow) till I posted a layover on the GR website.

http://grmouthpieces.com/layovers.htm

So my friends to date, this is what we see:

Blind testing clearly showed that the GR Standard rim was far superior for most players, followed by the 3 series rim. The reverse engineered Bach 3 was in the dust.

Once players saw the rim layovers, their minds started working and the "blind" test was thrown out the window. Results started to change with the Beta (Blue) rim gaining votes. We have seen this numerous times with players who play differently on gear they "think" they need. Interesting!

Now, let's see what happens to the rest of the votes as the "full reveal" has been dropped.

Ladies and gents, this is not just a rim beta test, this is also Psychology 101. Let's see what happens!

PS-We have a lot of data form people not posting on the Trumpet Herald. Don't be fooled by the numbers on the TH or only the TH beta testers as we have much more info.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com


hahaha. thanks for the reveal... very interesting indeed! I did not see the layovers until after doing the tests and had never played on a GR standard rim before, but after I saw the layovers I had suspected that the red might be the GR standard rim because it looked more like the GR standard contour than the other two test pieces even though the blue felt more like what i imagined a standard rim should feel like during testing since i'm used to playing on bach equipment. Thanks again for letting us be a part of this experiment and look forward to helping out with future testing
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mattdalton
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
Brian,
...to me, it appears (based on the fragmented results only that I have read on this post) there is a possibility of the following hypothesis...

People who play exclusively on Bach MPs (or have for many years) liked the Blue MP that according to you is in fact a copy of a Bach MP Rim.

Note: If based on your data, the confidence level is high...I would not be surprised by this.

Those who currently play a GR MP tend to favor either the Red or Yellow which is more similar to a GR Rim.

Note: Again...if based on your data, the confidence level is high, I would not be surprised by this either.

Based on all of the data you have (that is in addition to the data on TH) have you identified the possible correlation noted above?

Due to the fact that I (N=1) was born and raised on Bach MPs for well over 25+ years (right or wrong...good or bad...just a fact...not to say they are the best)...and I chose the Blue MP...(possibly due to my chops that have "grown" / "used to" / "adjusted to / into" the Bach rims)...I have to believe their might possibly be a correlation.

I would be very interested in a comparison of the testers currently played MP against the color MP that they chose.

This could easily be understood by creating a Matrix of MPs...current / vs. color MP chosen.

This is certainly worth consideration, but only if you are talking about Bach 3C rims and GR standard rims. Granted, there are many, many 3C players, but this could be very different for a Bach mouthpiece players using a 5C, 3B, 7C, 1-1/4C, etc. or GR players using e rims, Haefner rims, etc.
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