range of downstream vs. upstream

FN Wilson · Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 11:38 pm Post subject:

I was once told that because i was a 3 b i would have tendency for a really good tone..but..range would not be there...but after reading a post of famous players I see that it may not be true..ie sandoval 3a,chase downstream, and maynard a possible 3b..any coments?

dustin

Wilktone · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 12:27 pm Post subject:

I'll take a stab at answering this question, but I may be off base.

From my understanding, it is common for certain types, like IV and IVA to have a strong upper register, but have a brighter sound. Likewise, many type IIIBs can have great flexibility and a dark sound, but not have that predisposition to a strong high register.

All that said, if one works with your natural embouchure in the correct way, you can build on your aparent weaknesses from your strengths. There are plenty of examples of players who's playing goes against the typical tendency, either through patience and hard, logical work, or just through being different.

It's really hard to generalize embouchures, even players of the same type.

Dave
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DSR · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 1:08 pm Post subject:

Upstream players have an upper range that requires less physical exertion to produce.

jhatpro · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 2:00 pm Post subject:

This is a very interesting thread. Can someone tell me more about the upstream/downstream catagories? Is this something that's common knowledge to trumpet performance majors? How can a player catagorize him/herself? What are the implications of falling into one category versus another? Are there excercises or drills that may be of special help to a severe downstream player?

Incidentally, I've noticed that Phil Smith of the NYP seems to be a downstream player. And Shorty Rogers was an extreme downstream player -- he held his horn almost as if it were a clarinet. I don't know their range capabilities but I have to assume they are/were excellent.

Thanks for any insights!

Jim

DSR · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 2:43 pm Post subject:

Jhat...downstream refers to the direction of the airstream in the cup of the mouthpiece, not the angle of the horn. In fact, a type IIIA downstream player usually has a very flat horn angle and yet his airstream goes "down" into the cup of the mouthpiece the same amount as a type III, who has a really low angle. Most players in the orchestral field are downstream players.

Let me explain upstream/downstream further. Each an every individual has a different physical make-up, and hence plays differently that any other player. Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt discovered that although no two embouchures are exactly alike, many embouchures are similar and can be categorized. There are 4 types (each with different properties) and nine subtypes. Observing thousands of students through specially designed plexiglass mouthpieces, he came to the conclusion that of all these types the airstream either travels up into the cup of the mouthpiece or down into the cup. It is impossible to play with the airstream going straight into the throat. When a performer ascends, his or her airstream strikes closer to the rim of the mouthpiece. (on an upstreamer, towards the nose...on a downstreamer, towards the chin.) The opposite is true for the lower tones - the airstream strikes closer to throat. Reinhardt's different placemetns vary from 7/8 lower lip, 1/8 upper lip to 7/8 upper lip, 1/8 lower lip.

This is difficult to explain in just a paragraph. His encyclopedia has around 300 pages of writing, covering everything from the eight tonguing types, to the nine embouchure types, to how to breate correctly, to the correct mental attitude towards teachers, calisthenics ect.....

I strongly suggest you talk to Mr. Willey or some of the other Reinhardt students on this board as they know far far more than I do!!!

-Brendan

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2002-10-05 19:06 ]

jhatpro · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 3:59 pm Post subject:

Brendan,

Great information -- thanks! I had no idea the physiological characteristics of trumpet players had been mapped that extensively. I'll take your advice and visit the DSR forum.

Jim

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Hey guys,

I'd like to get in on this one. It's true that the strait type IV ( not the IVA ) has an advantage in the upper register, but I must tell you that the type IV,s that really have their s**t together are few and far between. I've heard so many IV,s that have thin little nasal sounds, terrible pitch problems and couldn't single tongue if you held a gun to their heads.

Let's get something strait here, it's not how high you can squeak in your room, it's how your can use ALL of your notes to play MUSIC!!

The beauty of the Pivot System is that any type can play any way. A downstream type can play great high notes or an upstreamer can get a great sound with great technique. Just beacause someone is a certain type doesn't mean his fate is sealed. there are plenty of IIIB,s out there with a great range, as a matter of fact Doc called the IIIB the "Lead trumpet embochure" beacause of the great sound that the IIIB gets. If you want to hear some IIIB high notes check out Lyn Nicholson on http://www.trumpetstuff.com You know Doc told me that he thought Maynard was a IIIB, you can't get any better than that! I probably shouldn't be mentioning myself in the same breath as Maynard and Lyn, but I too am a IIIB downstream and if you go to http://www.warburton-usa.com/chrislabarbera.htm you will hear another IIIB playing high.

As far as the upstreamers go there are plenty with good sounds who are not high note specialists. Wynton is a IV, and so is Freddie Hubbard and Tim Hagans.

When Doc typed me IIIB way back in 1979 the first thing that I asked him was; "IIIB? what does that mean?" and he said; " That means that thats the road we are going to travel." And thats all these types really are , they are just our own little personal roads that we travel on. How far we go, or how fast we get there is up to us.

Think about it. Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-10-06 03:46 ]

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-10-06 04:00 ]

Wilktone · Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:37 am Post subject:

hairy james · Regular Member Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 93

Dave,

That was beautifully put, you are a credit to the Pivot System and this forum.

I have some of my own thoughts on this range-vs-type thing. First off it's not only the type that you have to consider but what physical playing attributes does the player possess.

Important things like tooth shape and formation, the size of the oral cavity, the lenght and width of the tongue and the tensil strength of the lips are all important in my opinion.

Take Lyn Nicholson for example, he is a type I(one) tongue, I also play with a type I tongue. There was a trumpet player here in town for a while named Steve Reid who had a great upper register and he was a IIIB type I tongue. I also belive Maynard uses the type I tongue.

Did you ever notice how some boxers can get the crap beat out of them, yet they never cut or swell? and other boxers are all cut and swollen after one round. What makes you think that the skin on your chops is any different? It's my opinion that our lips all have different degrees of tensil strength. Some of us can push and press all night without so much as a mark, and others start to swell or cut regardless of their physical type.

These are just a few thoughts on the subject and I haven't even gotten into body types, lung capacity, jaw size and strength or the biggest can of worms of them all TEETH. Buck on normal, space or no space, long or short, flat or with a pronounced high spot.

I would love to here what anybody else ( especially Dave ) has to say about any of this, particularly tooth formations. Thanks.

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-10-06 14:55 ]

DSR · Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:10 am Post subject:

You shut me down Wilk!

Here is a quote from the encyclopedia...I guess I just stated the opposite of it: "The extreme upper tones are often less responsive and require more physical exertion thatn the upstream types; p.225

You are absolutely right though...I should watch what I type.

-B