novice

[spanky]

why would a player want to learn the reinhardt system??

[spanky]

ooooookkkkkkaaaaaaayyyyyy. i guess a player shouldnt learn the system??

the reason i'm asking is i read the sign of the door before i came in and it said "learn about the teachings of reinhart". anyway, i know zero about the reinhart system other than there seems to be a pivot in use when you play and that rich uses the system very well. can someone explain the system??
[ This Message was edited by: spanky on 2002-09-06 10:06 ]

[ This Message was edited by: spanky on 2002-09-06 10:19 ]

[Emb_Enh]

It's all here for ya buddy...

http://www.mindspring.com/~scream/pivot

Roddy o-iii<O
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[spanky]

ok, from the descriptions at the website, i think i'm a IIIB. if you play downstream, that makes you a IIIB, right??

[hairy james]

Spanky, There are three downstream types in the pivot system. They are: The IIIA, IIIB and the standard type III. Types IIIA and IIIB are very common trumpet types, while the standard III is less common on trumpet, it is fairly common on trombone. Without going into great detail I'll try to give the simplest description of each type. Type IIIB- The most common type of all (especially on trumpet) places the mouthpiece about half and half to slightly higher on the top lip. The horn angle can be anywhere from almost horizontal to varying degrees of a downward tilt. A typical type IIIB is Al Vizzuti. Type IIIA- Places the mouthpiece anywhere from 70 to 80% on the top lip ( and in some cases even higher ) the horn angle is generaly higher than the IIIB often around horizontal or even higher.A typical type IIIA is Dave Stahl. The standard type III- Can place anywhere from half and half on up. The horn angle is always decidedly downward, and the red of the lower lip is always drawn in and over the lower teeth. Most trumpet players of this type will either become a IIIA or IIIB when they learn to protrude the jaw correctly, But you still see standard type III's on trombone. A typical standard type III on trumpet was Conrad Gozzo and on Trombone, Tommy Dorsey. Each one of these types has either a "push up" or "pull down" pivot to ascend or descend, describing all of that information, plus WHAT PIVOTING TRULY IS would be too time consuming here. If you are really interested may I suggest you buy the "Encyclopedia of the Pivot System" by Dr. Donald S Reinhardt. Dave Sheetz sells corrected versions for about thirty dollars. You can get in touch with Dave on the website Roddy has mentioned above. Good Luck, Chris LaBarbera

[BeboppinFool]

[hairy james]

Rich, I agree with you one hundred percent. One of the problems with this forum is that the Pivot System and Doc's teachings are so detailed and highly personalized that it's impossible to help most of these players without actually seeing them in person. I can't tell you how many times I called Doc with a problem, and he would say to me "Come up and see me." or "There's not much I can tell you over the phone, I have to see it." And remember, I was his student at the time and was already well versed in the Pivot System. So when a person asks a question on this forum who knows nothing about the Pivot Sytem, or someome who has had limited contact with one of Doc's former students, they have to understand that guys like Paul, Rich and myself can only do so much. All we can do is answer very basic question here, If you need more than that, then you MUST STUDY WITH SOMEONE WHO REALLY KNOWS THE PIVOT SYSTEM!!! We can't solve your chop problems here. Chris.

[_Don Herman]

OK, I'm confused (as usual). I've been interested in Doc's ideas ever since first hearing about him, but have hesitated because I've got too much material now (information overload) and I didn't (so far as I know) have a local resource (teeacher) to visit. Now, with this forum. I decided to order the Encyclopedia and go through it with the idea of at least seeing what it was all about, largely because several posts said he had provided all the info needed to carry on his legacy in the book. Or, at least it plus material which could hopefully be provided by persons contributing to this forum.

Now, y'all say a teacher is the only way to go? So, if I go ahead and get the book, I'll need to find a teacher to interpret it for me? Now, this is NOT something I consider bad -- I didn't really understand the Chicago approach before getting a teacher, and it's spelled out pretty simply. Before Charly and the Caruso Forum, much of the Caruso exercises seemed a bit of a mystery, even though the directions are clear. I understand, and encourage, the value of a good teacher. I just want to know if it's worth getting the book without a teacher, and why. Can I learn Doc's approach from the book, or should I consider it an addition to a good Reinhardt teacher? Can I determine my "type" alone with the book, or does it take a teacher? I can well see why it would, but perhaps you in the know could clarify the murky water a bit for me?

Curious, and grateful for any response,
I remain,
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[BeboppinFool]

[hairy james]

The enclyclopedia can help you with the very basics. There is a wealth of good information in there. But I think its dangerous for a novice to try to type himself. As a matter of fact Doc says in the encyclopedia "Correct type diagnosis and analysis is the difference between success and faliure." There are a few important things to consider. First of all, there are five types in the book that Doc said would be "Impossible for a novice in the Pivot System to determine with any degree of accuracy." They are types I, IA, II, IIA and the standard type III. He said that these types should get a "Personal orientation and analysis of their entire physical playing anatomy." Another thing you must remember is that your type can change. IIIB's somtimes become IV's or IVA's. The standard type III on trumpet usually winds up becoming either a IIIA or IIIB. The reasons for these changes are many. Sometimes when a player has corrected a bad playing habit his type will change. Other things that bring on a type change are teeth shifting, an injury, or very stressful playing situations. For example, lets say a IIIB takes a gig on a rock band where he's playing loud an high for extended periods. That IIIB can easily "slip down and out of position" and become a IV or IVA. When Doc would type you he would usually put "For now." after your type, meaning even he did'nt know what type you might wind up after several months of study with him. How can a novice or a person with a limited knowlage of the Pivot System handle all that information? As Doc would say, "A little knowlage is a dangerous thing." Chris LaBarbera.

[_Don Herman]

Thanks guys, that does clear it up for me. I'll probably order the book out of curiousity and a desire to learn all that is knowable...

As for "stable" chops, not even close in my case. I'm still trying to find myself. It is true I find a lot of useful tidbits in many methods, and much overlap. Yes, I do read a lot, and have tried quite a few things. This comes from my day gig as an analog design engineer, not my trumpet playing hobby. Gives me a deep seated instinct to research everything in excruciating detail, and coupled with my innate curiousity about most all things leads to information overload. My teacher is good at keeping me on track, and tolerates my analytical deviations -- to a point. (Note the first four letters of "analytical"... )

So, guess I'm saying that while "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" (seems I've heard that elsewhere? ) too much is just as bad... The old "paralysis by analysis" bit.

Thannks guys! - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[BeboppinFool]

[_Don Herman]

Sorry Rich,

I didn't mean to cause trouble here... especially since I'm already off topic. I have myself, and have seen in some students, a tendency to get overloaded with different theories and methods. They try too many different things, and don't settle on any one enough to know if it truly helps or hurts. How can they -- they don't know! BTW, you can insert "I" and "me" in the sentences above and you'd be right much of the time. The problem isn’t "too much information" exactly; it's in knowing how, when, and why to apply the information.

I think the teacher is in the opposite position. As a teacher (grad EE lectures, but the same idea works here, I think) I try to know and understand everything I can about the topic, not only so I won't be caught off guard (I wish!) but also to be able to present an idea several different ways. I like the "rule of threes" from my (long ago) Karate days -- I try to have at least three different ways to explain a point, hoping one of the ways will reach each student so everybody goes home happy. In this case, "too much information" does not apply.

The trick for me is to gain information (and I love learning, it's a curse) without getting "wishy-washy" about what to use when. We (trumpet players, or engineers or anything else, for that matter) often have to teach ourselves, so we ride the line between gaining enough knowledge to do that intelligently, and getting so many different things to try -- and trying them -- that we never progress. As you and others have posted here and in other forums, a halfway approach is most often doomed to failure. A dilettante approach -- picking and choosing what works best -- requires careful execution and pretty thorough understanding of what to try and for how long, imho.

I hope this rambling helps clear things up; I'll try to stay out from here on in an attempt to avoiding trouncing toes. Sorry!

Best wishes - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[Wilktone]

I'll second Rich, here.

Many players are lucky enough to naturally find the right way for them play most efficiently. When everything is working well, too much thought and analysis can indeed cause a paralysis of sorts because your attention is on something other than the expression and musicality.

But for the rest of us, a little analysis will take us a long way. When something doesn't work it won't be fixed by ignoring it. We need to discover *why* it doesn't work and *how* to fix it. Once we've got the problem solved, *then* we can go back to not thinking about it.

Dave

[hairy james]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing when it comes to Reinhardt. I can give you dozens of examples of this. Suppose a novice upstream type buys the encyclopedia, mis-types himself as a downstream type and then tries to do the "Four Buzzing Catagories of the Pivot System" that are in the encyclopedia. You can learn all the scales and practice all the harmony you want to and it will never put you into a "Brass playing spin." as Doc would say. As I said before there are five types in the encyclopedia that Doc wouldn't even talk about because he said it would be impossible for a novice to figure them out? There are many things that a novice can get from the encyclopedia to help their playing. But remember, Doc has four standard embouchure types and five sub types plus eight tongue types! I believe "The Encyclopedia of the Pivot System" is the greatest body of work ever written about brass playing, and Doc it's greatest genius. I'll say this again; How can anyone with little or no knowledge of the Pivot System be expected to decifer all that information. All I have to do is think back to the way I felt right after I had my first lesson with Doc. I was totally confused when I left his studio. It took several weeks for the whole thing to really sink in. And remember I was studying with the actual author of the book in question. Think this over. Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-09-08 14:07 ]

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-09-08 22:32 ]

[spanky]

ok, i've been away for a few days and now i see that trying to "type" myself was very misguided. so here i am, a definite novice. i currently max out at "G" over high "C" on a good day. more realistic is probably "F" over high "C". i'm trying to increase my range but more importantly, i'm trying to improve the fullness(fatness??) of my sound. will reinhart help me?? i was trying to learn SC but kinda fell out of favor i guess and i'm searching. can this system help me??

[scream]

YES!!!!!! What's SC?
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

[spanky]

SC is Super Chops.

[jgadvert]

You can hit a G over high C and thats considered novice? cmon??!!!!

I rarely see a piece a music where a high G or better is required....and I aint exactly a novice.

[BeboppinFool]