Typical insertion amount for a Bach Strad

[Irving]

Louise, the only way you are going to find out something about your mystery receiver is to call Leigh and ask him if he adjusts the receiver of Bach trumpets in this way. If he does, you will have an answer. If not, there is no amount of speculation that will give you a definitive answer. It could be that somebody else adjusted it. It could be a factory error. Who knows? Maybe you should just put the horn away for a while and come back to it when you can take the horn out of the case and not think about the receiver.

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

As an end to this topic, my mouthpiece receiver looks as I've shown in the photo and described alongside.

I use a James R New 6.5 sleeve in my Yamaha Xeno II. This replicates the insertion amount of a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece. I've never measured the gap. It plays really well like this, so there is no need.

Apart from my 1994 Bach 7C, which inserts like a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece, all my Bach trumpet mouthpieces/backbores converted from them, insert 1mm less than a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece, and a James R New 6 sleeve replicates this insertion amount.

I'm therefore using the insertion amount of a Yamaha mouthpiece on a Yamaha trumpet, and insertion amount of a Bach mouthpiece on a Bach trumpet. The mouthpiece is a copy of the cup end of my favourite 3C with a copy of a standard Bach 10 backbore, so effectively a Bach 3C, and along the lines of a Yamaha 14B4.

On paper, this all sounds right to me. Whatever gap I'm getting is as if I used the original mouthpiece supplied with each of my trumpets. Whether that is optimum (it appears to be on my Xeno II) is another thing, but it is a good starting point or finishing point in my case, as I don't think that I can do anymore.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Irving]

Just to put this into perspective, our horns can have various differences that we are probably unaware of. That could be why some horns play better than others. It could also be true that something that is not true to specs could actually make the horn better than one that is spot on. If somebody has a horn that they really like, and something is amiss, they would be nuts to try and fix it. An out of adjustment section or whatever could be compensated by something else that is out of adjustment. So you either have your horn blue printed from top to bottom, or, if the horn is a good one, you just leave it be, since you cannot accurately predict the result of the adjustment.

[JayKosta]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

Leigh has replied:

Hello Louise

Great to hear from you.
Okay do I'd need to see it for myself as pictures are fine but it's much better if I see it in the flesh as such.
All trumpets have different ledges , some more prominent than others.
Our own have a very small ledge, schilke hardly anything.
I'd certainly be very happy to have a look for you Louise.
If it was something you wanted changed then of course we can do that too.
Is it possible to visit at some stage?
Best wishes

Leigh
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[JayKosta]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

A further reply from Leigh:

Hi Louise.

Sorry for the delay writing I've had clients all day and just had time to read your email properly.
Okay so firstly we never used other parts on other makes of horns.
We would only ever use the same manufacturers parts, unless a client asks us to make a different pipe for then.
Which we do all the time.

So what you've said makes a lot of sense now coming off a xeno which is indeed a tighter or more restrictive Instrument anyway.
Many times a player changes from a more restrictive instrument to something that is naturally more open it certainly will feel very different for the first while until you adjust to the airflow.
If still swapping between the 2 then that will be an unbalance for you probably for good.
It would be a case of playing just one and adjusting to it.
By the same token let's just say for instance you put away the yammie under the bed and o ly play the bach for maybe 6 months.
Your lungs and air column would naturally adjust to the bach and I'm sure it would in time feel right, maybe even with a bit more room in the high register in fact than the yammie.
Then if you picked up the yammie and tried it you would then have the opposite effect of the yammie feeling too tight and restrictive I'm sure, as you had then become used to the bach.
We see this all the time with players coming in trying new gear too.
For instance yamaha instruments do tend to be on the slightly more restrictive side of things.
The yamaha xeno soprano cornet for instance is without doubt the mist restrictive sop on the market. So when they come and try either our sop or a schilke or stomvi all 3 will feel more open Initially until they adapt to the airflow.

So this is quite usual.
However I'd rather take a look, it would be nice to see you anyway and yes of course as I'm a maker if there is a situation where you wanted more resistance in the bach gor you personally then I'm sure we can do that for you Louise.
Yes it would require a different leadpipe put on but that is easy enough to do and can be done while you wait and you can try our leadpipes until you feel the resistance level is more comfortable for you.
We would also of course look to see if the instrument has any air leaks or other detrimental things while you were here.
All of which again are not the end of the world to remedy.
If when your ready we get a date together I'll also ask one of my endorsed trumpet development artists to join us which is a great help.
I'm sure you'd actually enjoy the day out hahahah.
Anyway don't worry about a thing, I'm sure an old bald trumpet maker can sort this whatever it is okay 😁

I look forward to hearing from you when you decide on a date in the future.
Just contact me again and we can sort a day out.
Our workshop number if you need it is
01582 595507

Very best wishes

Leigh
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Irving]

Sounds like an affable chap, what.

[abontrumpet]

[jadickson]

James Becker explained to me that the mouthpiece gap depends on the mouthpiece maker. Some makers design their mouthpieces with a larger or smaller gap in mind, compared to a Bach mouthpiece.

Confirmed by the Stork company. I contacted them when I noticed the gap with my Vacchiano 2C mouthpiece was larger than my Bach mouthpieces. They said that is by design.

I have one James New mouthpiece, and it gaps a bit more than a typical Bach mouthpiece.

For Bach mouthpieces, there is a thing in one of the old Bach mouthpiece manuals where VB says the gap should be 1/8" - 3/16" with Bach mouthpieces in a Bach trumpet. Most new ones seem to fall in that range, but there are still inconsistencies.

I hope this is helpful.

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

I've asked two friends who play Bach 37s from a similar time frame to mine, whether I can borrow their Bachs for a few weeks.

My plan is to compare mine to theirs, to hopefully determine if having no leadpipe ledge is making any significant difference. The problem will be that I will be comparing three 1970s/1980s Bach's which may play differently even without my odd mouthpiece receiver, but if my two colleagues play similarly to each other, different to mine, and I prefer theirs, it may suggest that it is worth asking Leigh to sort my leadpipe, so that I have the usual ledge at the top. I intend to look down the receivers of my colleagues Bachs to see how they differ.

I'll also offer to lend my Bach to my friends and ask them what they think.

My idea is that if my Bach seems to significantly differ from my two colleagues in a way that I feel may be linked to no leadpipe ledge, a differnce in blow and slotting for an example, I will visit Leigh sooner, and ask to try other leadpipes.

If my Bach plays very similarly to my colleagues, then it is not worth doing anything about the leadpipe, and it is a case of deciding whether I want to spend some time on my Bach 37 or stick with my Xeno II. I have some particular solos in my community light orchestra that I want to try on each. In particular I have a small ballad style solo in a Pirates of Penzance selection that I was not happy with on my Xeno II last week. I switched to cornet and felt that I could colour my sound so much more on cornet. Maybe that is a cornet thing. I didn't have my Bach 37 with me, and the MD only coincidentally played the section containing the solo twice anyhow. He was probably never going to play it three times. I however want to know what I can do with this solo on both trumpets. Today at home is the day to try. If I feel that I can colour my sound more on my Bach 37 for ballad style solos, I may be happy to compromise with less secure slotting for symphony orchestra playing. That is how I'm looking at it.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Irving]

Louise, how would you know if the difference between somebody else's Bach and your is because of your lead pipe? You would be better off borrowing a lead pipe and taping it on to your horn and seeing what difference, if any, it makes.

[Rhondo]

“Your lungs and air column would naturally adjust to the bach…”

Makes so much sense.

Whatever the outcome is for you Louise, it sounds like you definitely have the right person to guide you.

[Louise Finch]