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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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derekthor Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2012 Posts: 480 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Buy a cornet or a flugelhorn if you want a "dark" tone. If you're looking for a rich, full trumpet sound, you're probably going to have to think a lot more about your basic approach to sound production.
A friend of mine who went to UT Austin told me about an exchange another student there had with Paul Merkelo, who was visiting to give a masterclass:
PM: "You have a very dark sound."
Student: "Thank you."
PM: "That wasn't a compliment. A sound that's too dark is dull and lifeless."
I'd also encourage you to read through this: http://grmouthpieces.blogspot.com/2013/04/bright-vs-dark-trumpet-sound.html. I think the last paragraph is the best:
Quote: | When listening to great performers on any instrument (especially vocal artists) it should become obvious that there is no single “dark” or “bright” tone that is sufficient for the range of human experience we strive to communicate. So, is a “bright” tone bad and “dark” tone good? Let’s decide not trap ourselves in that very small box labeled “bright” or “dark.” The world is full of stunningly interesting and beautiful tone. Open your ears, taste the sounds and enjoy!" |
You can go for the instant gratification that playing larger and larger mouthpieces may provide, and obviously, without hearing you no one here can conclude for certain what your issue is, but I'd bet good money that your sound concept isn't really developed and you have too much tension in your body when you play. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9086 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Well, that depends on context, doesn't it? I would use a different sound concept for lead, big band trumpet than in a jazz combo. The sounds don't have to carry the same.
And one man's dull and lifeless might be just the sound another is seeking. And also, the term dark is being used in contrast to bright.
OP, if I were you, I'd continue my search for a dark horn. But keep in mind that you probably still want that inherent sound to project and not be muffled. And it's a good point to have a clear, developed concept of just the exact sound you want. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Last edited by kehaulani on Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:18 am; edited 3 times in total |
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vwag Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Jul 2016 Posts: 180 Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: |
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I agree with all the above, but I esp agree that the mpc has the biggest impact. I have the Curry TF (Trumpet FLugel) and I can go dark on my 37 with it. I had an A9 and it does have a very unique tone, very fun to play and try out. My A4 arrives today (courtesy Trent) and I believe it will be very versatile as well.
I do feel that with increased volume and the higher up the staff, the less it will sound 'dark'. Even with a flugelhorn. |
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VintageFTW Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: |
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If you absolutely must insist on a change in equipment, mouthpiece or horn alike, then I would suggest looking into the Jupiter XO 1602 series. They play exceptionally well and tend towards producing a VERY dark, orchestral tone with lots of core and power. That has at least been my experience. Another horn I get a very full and rich tone on is surprisingly a 1952-54 Bach 43.
I should add that my idea of the ultimate "dark" tone is along the lines of Gábor Tarkövi.
Keep in mind that Roy Hargrove's tone is also considered "dark." The difference is that his tone would called "smokey," while Gábor's would be considered powerful and commanding. That's not to say a tone that is considered "smokey" can't be powerful as well... just listen to Arturo when choosing to play like that. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2458
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Dark is not dull or lifeless - necessarily. Yes, there are horns that mute so much of the spectrum that they sound lifeless - dark, but no longer like a trumpet.
The original post included this description of the issue for which advice is sought: "when I let loose on it and increase in range and dynamic, my tone becomes more bright and brilliant". This is not uncommon - in fact on lighter weight designs, it is downright normal. There is a horn that is designed specifically to remain warm/"dark" at all dynamics. That is the Austin Winds Stage 466, which is built to their design by Taylor in Great Britain. It is dark, but still sounds like a trumpet. - Unfortunately, you have to go to Austin to get one.
I was a skeptic of the buzz about Austin Winds (not to be confused with Austin Custom Brass), so I went there - I wound up buying one. The hype is mostly substance in this (rare) case. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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VintageFTW Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Somewhere in the mountains of North Georgia
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I do believe another horn that is designed to stay dark but still trumpet-ey at all dynamics is one of the Schagerl James Morrison models. I think it might be the JM2, but I'm not sure. _________________ 1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more |
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RussellDDixon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2014 Posts: 833 Location: Mason, OH
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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bach_again wrote: | INTJ is right.
If you can't sound dark on a CG 3 mouthpiece the problem is you, not the gear.
Mike | I concur totally ... _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana XLT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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The OP can essentially give up on thinking about instrument or mouthpiece. Regardless of all the well meaning commentary about this or that mpc or instrument, there are far too many players who can do exactly what he wants on any instrument or mouthpiece to warrant the expense that is being thought of.
Unless your horn is faulty, then it's off to the practice room to do some hard yards.
And to be even more precise, I have one student who played on a 3C last time I heard him in a jazz setting. Being it was a modern group doing some pretty way out stuff, he could go from fluffy, dark, soft to very loud brilliant golden sounds and also fun rich orchestral sound at any dynamic in about a heartbeat. By that time, we had both studied with the same orchestral player (me last century) and I could hear his amazing sound, plus Baker, Dizzy and a fair whack of Maynard all coming from the same young guy.
Actually, he sounds just as good on his rather expensive Monette, but feels he can create the sounds he wants more easily. Having played the trumpet, I tend to agree, but I can still do what I want on mine, or the one in my teaching studio at work, my very first horn etc. etc. It's all in my head.
What one can do, we can all do, or at least aspire to do.
So again, unless your horn is faulty, then it's off to the practice room to do some hard yards.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | The OP can essentially give up on thinking about instrument or mouthpiece. Regardless of all the well meaning commentary about this or that mpc or instrument, there are far too many players who can do exactly what he wants on any instrument or mouthpiece to warrant the expense that is being thought of.
Unless your horn is faulty, then it's off to the practice room to do some hard yards.
And to be even more precise, I have one student who played on a 3C last time I heard him in a jazz setting. Being it was a modern group doing some pretty way out stuff, he could go from fluffy, dark, soft to very loud brilliant golden sounds and also fun rich orchestral sound at any dynamic in about a heartbeat. By that time, we had both studied with the same orchestral player (me last century) and I could hear his amazing sound, plus Baker, Dizzy and a fair whack of Maynard all coming from the same young guy.
Actually, he sounds just as good on his rather expensive Monette, but feels he can create the sounds he wants more easily. Having played the trumpet, I tend to agree, but I can still do what I want on mine, or the one in my teaching studio at work, my very first horn etc. etc. It's all in my head.
What one can do, we can all do, or at least aspire to do.
So again, unless your horn is faulty, then it's off to the practice room to do some hard yards.
cheers
Andy |
Great post, Andy! If my brain worked better I'd have written something like that.
Mike _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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jojocat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2012 Posts: 948 Location: Baie St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Dark is not dull or lifeless - necessarily. Yes, there are horns that mute so much of the spectrum that they sound lifeless - dark, but no longer like a trumpet. |
Like Wynton Marsalis? _________________ The least we can do is wave to each other
Martin Committee trumpet
Yamaha 6335H
Yamaha 6320
Accent 781 |
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jojocat Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2012 Posts: 948 Location: Baie St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously, if the OP is looking for a dark horn that doesn't sound dull or lifeles, I would highly recommend to get a Martin Handcraft Imperial. If Committee model is reknowned for its dark and warm tone, the Handcraft Imperial sounds even darker.
That's the same model Mike sowed in his video. I have one too and I love it to death! Using my Donat 169C with it, the sound has a gorgeous warmth to it. _________________ The least we can do is wave to each other
Martin Committee trumpet
Yamaha 6335H
Yamaha 6320
Accent 781 |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8345 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | The OP can essentially give up on thinking about instrument or mouthpiece. Regardless of all the well meaning commentary about this or that mpc or instrument, there are far too many players who can do exactly what he wants on any instrument or mouthpiece to warrant the expense that is being thought of.
Unless your horn is faulty, then it's off to the practice room to do some hard yards.
And to be even more precise, I have one student who played on a 3C last time I heard him in a jazz setting. Being it was a modern group doing some pretty way out stuff, he could go from fluffy, dark, soft to very loud brilliant golden sounds and also fun rich orchestral sound at any dynamic in about a heartbeat. By that time, we had both studied with the same orchestral player (me last century) and I could hear his amazing sound, plus Baker, Dizzy and a fair whack of Maynard all coming from the same young guy.
Actually, he sounds just as good on his rather expensive Monette, but feels he can create the sounds he wants more easily. Having played the trumpet, I tend to agree, but I can still do what I want on mine, or the one in my teaching studio at work, my very first horn etc. etc. It's all in my head.
What one can do, we can all do, or at least aspire to do.
So again, unless your horn is faulty, then it's off to the practice room to do some hard yards.
cheers
Andy |
Yup. Excellent post.
Most of the sound of a trumpet comes from the player. If you want a significantly better or different sound, the part that has to change is the player. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9086 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Wouldn't you say, though, that while you can compensate for the equipment with a clear vision of what you want to sound like, that some equipment has propensities in one direction and others in another? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Wouldn't you say, though, that while you can compensate for the equipment with a clear vision of what you want to sound like, that some equipment has propensities in one direction and others in another? |
I completely agree, but the Bach 180/77 is not a particularly bright sounding design. It has a great rich authoritative sound. I remember when I had the chance to play one in a good sized room, I was really impressed and felt that, if not for my Wild Thing, I would be very satisfied with that Bach. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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madAhorn Regular Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 13
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:30 am Post subject: |
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TA1 mouthpiece is helping me to play some Chet Baker material with a darker smokier tone. I usually play shallow, larger mouthpieces and can make a dark sound when playing softer, but the smaller yet deeper mouthpiece tends to keep my tone under control better at louder volumes as well. The TA1 also does not limit my range or endurance much like larger deep mouthpieces can. |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2024 Posts: 38 Location: SoCal, USA
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:52 am Post subject: |
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I'm seriously shopping student and intermediate flugelhorns, I want dark so badly.
Looked at the Wild Thing cornet. Rave reviews.
I'm more of a bargain / high value shopper.
Maybe a working but older Jupiter flugelhorn will bubble up. _________________ Ode to Joy is my earworm. It's a blessing and a curse. |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3623
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Arturo Sandoval's sound concept advice and demonstration in the Jens Lindemann video interview posted above is the Final Word! Period! _________________ C. G. Conn 60B Super Connstellation
Getzen 800S Eterna cornet
Bach 5C (Jens Lindemann is right)
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763 |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 914
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Since the OP asks specifically about horns and already likes and plays a Bach, I might suggest he try, if he can find one, a Bach Vindabona with a Gold Brass 65 bell. The one I had was the darkest horn I ever played. (Forgive me if this has already been suggested and I missed it in a previous post). |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 11:09 am Post subject: |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote: | ... I want dark so badly...
I'm more of a bargain / high value shopper.
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Assuming you already have a trumpet, a Curry TF mouthpiece (or similar) is definitely the cheapest way to take a big step in that direction. |
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