Difference between Standard and French Tapered Flugelhorn Mo

Lazarus · Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2002 4:22 pm Post subject:

What exactly is the difference between the two style of tapered mouthpieces for flugelhorn? I use a Schilke 15F for my Yamaha flugelhorn and have been told it is french taper (it is about as long as a cornet mouthpiece). For awhile I figured the difference between the two was the length of the shank because I also have a warburton 1FL that has a shank the size of a trumpet mouthpiece (I picked this up used from a store). But recently I was told that this was french taper as well. So is the difference in shank size or is it something different? Any info would be appreciated because I am very confused. It is somewhat embarrassing because I started playing flugelhorn a couple years ago in addition to the trumpet and have just never had to worry about the difference. Thanks!

--Stephen

P.S. Could any of you list some manufactures and what type of tapered mouthpiece they require?

trptdaddy · Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:55 pm Post subject:

I'll take a crack at this perplexing issue. I have at least 4 or 5 different tapers in the box of flugel mouthpieces I have. I decided to keep most of them because I never know when I'll get a flug that needs one of them. Roy Lawler is making flugels now and is trying to make them to the specs of your favorite flugel mouthpiece. But the different tapers are driving him nuts too. The French taper typically works for the French made flugels (duh?) such as the Couesnon, although they made some flugs (Monopole and Elkhart) that used the "American" taper. That taper is typically the standard now and fits Yamaha, Jupiter, Blessing, some Bessons, most Kanstuls and others. I've heard some Kanstuls use the French taper. The Bachs, vintage LeBlanc and most older Courtois flugels use the taper like the Bach moutpieces, which generally don't fit "standard" flugels very well. I didn't ask any questions about shank when I got my GR e65FL. But it doesn't fit my Getzen 4 valve or Lawler. It's too small and the piece rattles around. Doesn't really fit the Yamaha either. But the Warburton does. Yet Warburton also makes a "G" (German) shank and a "F" (French) shank. Confused yet? The Denis Wick has two shanks sizes, supposedly one to fit the "American" style (which ironically includes the Japanese Yamahas and Jupiters) and another to fit the French flugels, although Wick is an English company. My 4FL Wick fits Yamaha, Getzen and others, but is considerably shorter than all other flugel pieces I have. In the Lawler, the intonation was so thrown off, Roy is having to make a new, shorter leadpipe to make it work. IMHO there is no better sound than can be produced using the Wick FL mouthpieces.

Now, as to general shape, the French taper is sort of a misnomer. There is very little taper and can be rocognized quickly. The shank almost looks like a straight tube. (As an aside, the leadpipes on most French flugels have very little taper too. That's a big contributing factor as to the intonation problems with them - tapers are good). The Bachs are the smallest at the end, with lots of taper almost like a cornet piece. They will rattle around in most flugels. Most other flugel mouthpieces are shorter than trumpet length, almost the size of a cornet mouhpiece.

If the mouthpiece doesn't fit your horn, besides the obvious problems of not fitting in all the way and "wobbling" or fitting too loose and having air escape, the fluctuation in length caused by the ill fit and the taper of inside the shank vs inside the leadpipe will reek all sorts of havoc with the tone, intonation and "feel" of the flugel. I don't think many people realize this when testing a flugel. They just stick in a trumpet mouthpiece or a flugel moutjpiece they have lying around or that was in the case (used) and give up on a decent flugel becasue "it wasn't in tune, it felt stuffy, notes didn't slot" or a myriad of other reasonas which may have all been caused by a bad fit up front. This is why I keep all of the flugel pieces I've collected. I never know when a good del on a "so-so flugel" comes up and makes it sing like a bird (a big deep-voiced bird).

Luckily trumpets don't generally have this problem. There is a certain optimal balance that can be achieved with different horns and moutpieces, but the differences are more subtle.

Bottom line: If you find a flugel you like or interests you, contact the manufacturer or call Mark Curry or Terry Warburton and get their opinions on how your piece fits in now and what shank, length and cup depth would make the horn work the best for you.

Good luck.

David

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:52 am Post subject:

Can't add much to David's excellent post. FWIW, Flip's Wild Thing Flugelhorn uses French because it's more open (according to Flip). As David says, it's important to match mpc to horn with the right taper. I believe most flugel mpcs can be had in either taper, but you have to ask. - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

pair of kings · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2002 11:52 pm Post subject:

My Bach flugel mp never fit right in my Bach flugel - it wobbled, I used a Denis Wick. At a recent opening of my trumpet store we had the Kanstul Custom Class with the French taper and the Signature which has the Straight conventional (hope I got that right..). Everyone who tried them seemed to play on different mouthpieces and it does really make a difference, but-- How can you tell if it fits - if it doesn't wobble? people seemed to judge it by how far the mouthpiece went in the horn but it really varied.

pfrank · Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:53 am Post subject:

I just went through all this. For years I used a Bach MP on my Cousenon, and recently got the Warburtons in French taper. Everything is better including low register intonation and slotting. (it's just a better mp, too) The tuning pipe is now out a 1/4 inch whereas before, I was all the way in to be A440. Yamaha is a different taper than either French or American, it's half way between them. You can tell when you put them in the reciever: if it fits, it will snugly fit further in than a non-fiting mp. The Yamaha fits all the way into a Yamaha flug.; it Will go into the French Taper, (better than Bach will) but not perfectly. So there are 3 sizes goin on here.
_________________
"Truth is not in the heights but at the bottom of all things."
Paul Twitchell

trptdaddy · Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2002 11:43 pm Post subject:

There a couple of other sizes too. The vintage Courtois/LeBlanc work best with the Bach, I haven't found Bach to work well in any other horn. There is a German shank that is like a short trumpet shank. I used one Warburton made for me in an old Schenkelaars (Holland made) flugel.

David

Leedplyr · Regular Member Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 22

I got a GR Flugel mouthpiece for my Getzen and it did not seat well. I called up GR and he asked me to send in my flugel leadpipe. Gary fixed the receiver and now the piece fits in perfectly. Apparantly flugel receivers are all over the place in taper size. Gary told me he had a certain type of flugel in his shop that was the same make as his and made around the same time. They both had different receivers. I would suggest calling GR if you have a problem with your flugel mouthpiece.
C. Revas

Lazarus · Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:39 pm Post subject:

Thanks everyone! My schilke is working fine with my flugelhorn right now, but I have this wierd feeling that the warburton would sound really good two (two entirely different sounds, the schilke being more mellow and the warburton being more freeblowing and open). The reason I can't use the warburton, is because it puts the horn out of tune because the shank is too long. If I am to use it, I'll need two by a smaller flugel shank to screw onto it. Any ideas?

--Stephen