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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10205 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:10 am Post subject: Dunning-Kruger Effect |
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Do you think trumpet players are more likely than most people to exhibit evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect, the tendency to over-estimate or, conversely, under-estimate their ability? If so, which? _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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loudog Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2001 Posts: 1445 Location: Hastings, NE
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:25 am Post subject: |
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No, this is squarely on conductors and saxophonists.
Some trumpet players are definitely afflicted, but in my experience most trumpet players are pretty good folk... the creeps have sorta been filtered out these days it seems like! _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 995
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Reminds me of a youtube channel with the handle mindshock who moderates/ analyzes debates and includes a fallacy counter. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2667 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect |
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jhatpro wrote: | Do you think trumpet players are more likely than most people to exhibit evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect, the tendency to over-estimate or, conversely, under-estimate their ability? If so, which? |
Funny man. Dealing with the egos of trumpet players drives many directors crazy, myself included. Trying to tell them something to make them sound better causes the players to claim that it is impossible because they always sound great. I recorded a song at practice and the trumpet players thought everyone else had issues, but not them. So apparently they not only over inflate their own prowess, but it affects their hearing as well. Sigh. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: 1947 Cleveland Clevelander
1943 Conn 80A Cornet |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9088 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:34 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, trumpet players I have come into contact with are pretty aware of just what they can and cannot do.
One exception comes to mind and that was a professional player who name-dropped and talked a good story but couldn't live up to his own expectations.
I've known some real a@@****s but they could put their horn where their money was. And I've known humble folks who would surprise you once they played. But in no case did they over/underestimate themselves.
Sometimes someone will come on strong and give you the impression that they think they're better than they really are but deep down, they know where they really stand. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 995
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Can’t say trumpeters edge out people in other areas of music or life. In trucking we call them supertruckers. When they fail people get hurt. Medicine has the Dr. = GOD issue to deal with on occasion. Etc. etc.
The really sad side effects in music that I have seen are that the listeners suffer, the ensemble suffers and so does the individual and their own reputation when they stomp all over the music and everyone else’s musicality.
Humble vs low self esteem - low self esteem is unfortunate because they dampen their own light without taking a chance. I actually have seen more of that than the arrogant and talentless suffering from this “label/ syndrome”.
The highly qualified donkey is just its own thing other musicians are made to endure. If they are actually qualified then that negates the psychological label describing the overinflated fantasy image of competence. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:01 am Post subject: |
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I've heard this term used to describe a trumpet builder or two...or three. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10205 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve played in a lot of bands and run into very few players who could honestly check all the boxes: tone, technique, improv chops, and range. Some fell short in every area but the most frequent candidates for Dunning-Ruger status have been players with range to burn but limitations elsewhere, especially in improv ability. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | I’ve played in a lot of bands and run into very few players who could honestly check all the boxes: tone, technique, improv chops, and range. Some fell short in every area but the most frequent candidates for Dunning-Ruger status have been players with range to burn but limitations elsewhere, especially in improv ability. |
Lead players playing improv and the D-K Effect?! I thought all they had to do was play high and gallop their valves real fast, no?! |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1016 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Shaft wrote: | Humble vs low self esteem - low self esteem is unfortunate because they dampen their own light without taking a chance. I actually have seen more of that than the arrogant and talentless suffering from this “label/ syndrome”. |
Second this. In my experience the ‘Dunning-Kruger effect’ is primarily used in (online) discussions to discredit the opposing party rather than having to bother addressing their statements (often through implying it rather than naming it directly). Most real-life trumpet players I’ve met are mostly focused on making nice music rather than individual skill levels (other than downplaying their own). _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 995
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Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Yeah man. Having a fallacy count on all modern discussions would truly shape modern discourse. It slices through through the egos. I’m glad this topic was broight up. “Inferiority complex” and other aspects of psychology play a big role in human interactions.
Recently someone who seemed to have a “strong sense of self” admitted behind closed doors to being uncomfortable in their own skin and having lost their identity. (Not a musician) It blew my mind. It would have altered the approach in our own interpersonal dynamic had that been known. After months of self reflection also admitted to lying to themself and those around them. Actually showing a great deal of shadow-work in their impressive healing process post traumas.
The face people put on is not always true to self and it does affect things for better or worse. Good intentions or intentional overhyping aside, we all need grace and have struggles that many will never know of.
Anymore I just play with people I get along with or as of late learning about the home studio aspect of things to make music and incorporate new sounds. |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 735 Location: SE US
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Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Shaft wrote: |
The face people put on is not always true to self and it does affect things for better or worse. Good intentions or intentional overhyping aside, we all need grace and have struggles that many will never know of.
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Well said!
Life is Short! Find the Joy in it!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Oncewasaplayer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 974
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I constantly overestimate my abilities and have had some humbling moments. We need to challenge ourselves in order to see improvement. And when things fall apart, often in embarrassing ways, those are simply reminders to head back to the shed. I no longer beat myself up for those failures. All part of the journey. _________________ Getzen 800DLX cornet
Selmer Sigma trumpet |
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Man Of Constant Sorrow Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Jun 2023 Posts: 488
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Dunning-Kruger Effect |
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jhatpro wrote: | Do you think trumpet players are more likely than most people to exhibit evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect, the tendency to over-estimate or, conversely, under-estimate their ability? If so, which? |
I belive (?) I introduced this term several months ago, here. _________________ Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
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