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kehaulani
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 Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 6:21 am Post subject: |
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At some point shouldn't this have been transferred to the Reinhardt Forum?
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | At some point shouldn't this have been transferred to the Reinhardt Forum? |
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No.
Where on their lips an individual places the rim has little to do with Reinhardt - except that Reinhardt might have named that placement as a 'type'.
My understanding about Reinhardt is that the 'method' is more about how to manipulate the mouthpiece and embouchure while playing - AFTER having found the rim placement location that is most suitable for the individual.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
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Wilktone
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | At some point shouldn't this have been transferred to the Reinhardt Forum? |
I don't think so either. Personally, I feel that Reinhardt's method has been unfairly maligned by some, but it's not really necessary to split things up into different "schools" of brass playing. It's either correct for the individual student or not, you don't need to have to subscribe to any particular pedagogue's approach to understand and utilize this.
| Quote: | That is a VERY common phenomenon for IIIA players. slipping to a lower placement and getting those symptoms.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether it's "in the red." It's simply a placement that has slipped down below the ratio that is efficient for that embouchure type. It can happen when you get tired, or when you're sweating and too slippery, or if your mouthpiece is too small, or when you get too happy with a big fat sound in the low range. |
Yes, I had a similar thought.
Now also consider that the Reinhardt IIIA/Very High Placement embouchure type (one of the two basic downstream embouchure types) can be thought of as the opposite of the upstream/Reinhardt IV/Low Placement embouchure type. Upstream players, in my experience, very often run into the same situation but they are moving the placement up, instead of down, sometimes for similar reasons. Also, because they frequently are told that their low placement is wrong!
An awful lot of upstream players I work with don't have optimal placements because they're not placing low enough. It's entirely possible that the players abontrumpet is thinking about were having those problems not because they were placing too low, but rather needed to move it even lower.
| Quote: | abontrumpet wrote:
Basically my point here is that Arban could have been describing the surface area covered, not the area inside the cup. (In my hypothetical Arban would have written 1/10 and 1/2 respectively instead of 1/3 2/3)
Also I did want some feedback on this for whoever is reading! |
I dunno. In my copy of Arban's on p. 7 he wrote, "The mouthpiece should be placed in the middle of the lips, two-thirds on the lower lip, and one-third on the upper lip." I don't agree that his placement is correct for most players, even though that is not far from how I play. I don't agree with the middle of the lips part either (most players don't place exactly in the middle and some great ones place very far to one side), but it seems pretty clear that he was advocating for 2/3 bottom lip inside the mouthpiece.
He also wrote a couple of paragraphs later, "Some teachers make a point of changing the position of the mouthpiece previously adopted by the pupils who apply to them. I have seldom known this method to succeed. To my own knowledge, several players, already possessed of remarkable talent, have attempted what we call at the Conservatoire, the 'orthopedic system,' which consists of correcting the wrong placing of the mouthpiece. I consider it my duty to say that these artists, after having wasted several years in uselessly trying the system in question, were compelled to return to their original placement of the mouthpiece, not one of them having obtained any advantage, while some of them were no longer able to play at all."
Unfortunately, Claude Gordon's annotation states, "This could be argued. If the mouthpiece is too low, it should be changed. This can be done with no trouble, and a little patience, if it is done correctly. 'I have changed many students with never a failure.'"
I can't speak for Gordon's students and that he never had a failure, but I have worked with many brass students who had their embouchures changed to a higher placement that instead ended up with the situation Arban described.
Do some players place too low? Sure. I believe that Gordon strongly advocated 2/3 upper lip. While that is closer what is more common, I don't feel it's a good approach to advocate anything other than what works for the individual student.
Dave
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:31 am Post subject: |
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The appearance of mouthpiece placement seen from the outside is often not at all what's happening on the inside.
In terms of mouthpiece placement "slipping." it always tends to slip down, not up. So a high placement can end up too low, and a low placement player can slip off the top lip.
| JayKosta wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | At some point shouldn't this have been transferred to the Reinhardt Forum? |
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No.
Where on their lips an individual places the rim has little to do with Reinhardt - except that Reinhardt might have named that placement as a 'type'.
My understanding about Reinhardt is that the 'method' is more about how to manipulate the mouthpiece and embouchure while playing - AFTER having found the rim placement location that is most suitable for the individual. |
The "Reinhardt method" is about lots of things. Especially the way I teach. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be trying to explain it. |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | I don't think so either. Personally, I feel that Reinhardt's method has been unfairly maligned by some, but it's not really necessary to split things up into different "schools" of brass playing. It's either correct for the individual student or not, you don't need to have to subscribe to any particular pedagogue's approach to understand and utilize this. |
My thoughts as well.
| Doug Elliott wrote: | | The appearance of mouthpiece placement seen from the outside is often not at all what's happening on the inside. |
My point as well!
| Wilktone wrote: | | I dunno. In my copy of Arban's on p. 7 he wrote, "The mouthpiece should be placed in the middle of the lips, two-thirds on the lower lip, and one-third on the upper lip." |
Ah, about the french horn just below it, he negates my hypothetical. C'est la vie. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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The "Reinhardt method" is about lots of things. Especially the way I teach. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be trying to explain it."
I'm not trying to explain the Reinhardt Method.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3336
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | ...
| JayKosta wrote: |
...
My understanding about Reinhardt is that the 'method' is more about ... |
The "Reinhardt method" is about lots of things. Especially the way I teach. If you don't understand that you shouldn't be trying to explain it. |
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edit to not be snarky ...
I used the specification of "My understanding".
If your teaching of Reinhardt does have views about mouthpiece positioning based on criteria other than 'what works best for the individual', then I'd like to hear about your methods to help the student find that positioning. Even if it is just your claiming to help the student find their best mouthpiece position.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Doug Elliott
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Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1186
Location: Silver Spring, MD
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Of course it's about finding what's best for the individual.
It helps to understand what you're looking for, where to look, and why.
And no, I won't talk about the specifics here. |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | In the past you've been much more adamant that placement on the vermilion is a bad thing. You've either been consistently hyperbolic in the past, leading me to misunderstand you, or you've softened your opinion. |
One thing I wanted to clarify to the reader is that the reason for my "adamant-ness" in the past was that I had only (and basically still mostly do) considered playing "in the red" to mean -- downstream player (upper lip vibrator) playing in the vermilion of the upper lip.
The reason my position has softened is because "technically" I am ok with a downstream player playing in the vermilion of their lower lip and I had never considered an upstream player in my definition because I just haven't encountered them. That new consideration would mean that I would "technically" be ok with the inverse relationship if I had encountered it. I would also have ALWAYS been ok with somebody who didn't exhibit the "tell-tale signs" of playing in the red. My research into the situation made me confront that I had to speak, i.e., expand my argument, to more than just the "norm;" not just the middle of the bell-curve.
Based on all the "technicalities" of my own position, I have to be ok with vermilion placement for my position to render true to itself. I had to accept that below the surface, my own position reflects that all vermilion placement is arbitrary. In summation, the softening was more reconciling my own thoughts with themselves rather than being convinced of Wilktone's or any "pedagogical school's" position. I will give credit that Wilktone's incessant arguing did help me reconcile them (not his paper -- had to give it one more stab lol : P )
I still believe that all mouthpiece placements should be monitored by the teacher (during development) and those that are in the extremes do not escape that vigilance. As Wilktone mentions, "placement on the vermilion is an exception" and "most brass players won't be able to play well with such a high or low placement, but many do and they can be very fine players." |
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