Found an Interesting Polishing Compound that might be of

[Capt.Kirk]

Well I was trying to kill 45 minutes waiting for my Allergy Medicine and Thyroid Medicine at Walmart today. So I was making my rounds and in the Automotive section devoted to body work I found that 3M has a very intriguing Rubbing Compound! So it comes in a small bottle with a flip top looks much like a hand lotion bottle. It is $7,97 at my Walmart. I shook it up well then put a little dap on my finger and rubed it until it disappeared. It is finer then most white silica containing toothpastes in terms of grit. It contains Silica just like toothpaste, Kaolin Clay like the old Kaopectate Medicine, and Light Bodied Petro Distillates. Silica is kind of like quarts in that it does not have much cutting action after 1-2 pass's the crystals no longer cut which means it is hard to over do it. You would have to stop remove the old stuff and add more fresh to continue lapping so silica containing products are much safer for non-professionals. It has to be 3000-4000 grit or finer because I could not feel the grit at all and 1000-2000 grit which is what I use to wet sand automotive paint finish's before I paint them and to color sand you can easily feel. I normaly use 1000 grit diamond paste becasue one application per valve is all that is needed but you can easily over do it because diamond dust keeps cutting as long as you keep moving the parts it does not have any self limiting action so an amature could easily over do it with diamond paste if they lapped too long. Brasso use's Silica as well as the abrasive for the same reason.

It is either quarts or Mica that is used to lapp engine bearing in industrial poured Babbitt bearing for the same self regulating non-embedding cutting action. I will have to look that up in one of my old out of print machine shop books I forget at the moment!

Any how I just thought anyone intersted in doing lapping as a means of cleaning up their valves from years of use or refitting factor valves into their trumpet might like another option. So far we have Lava Hand Soap which is what Mr. Scodwell use's he has posted this on this site and it is about 2000 grit, we have 1000 grit Diamond Paste sold by Feerre's , we have tooth paste, brasso and now 3M's Rubbing COmpound from Walmart I want to sayt he P/N was something like 39000 but I will need to double check that!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[lipshurt]

hello captain

so how would it compare to to bon ami cleanser?

I have been using bon ami lately cuz it has no petroleum carriers that are hard to remove. The Bon ami just rinses with water.

what is bon ami? silica? it seems to only cut for a short time.

I also use bon ami to clean mouthpieces after buffing. It must be super fine cuz it makes zero scratches on a newly buffed surface..

thanks for the info


Doug M
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[VetPsychWars]

[Geodude]

Bon Ami contains feldspar (Mohs hardness =6) which is not quite as hard as quartz(Mohs hardness=7). I am not sure what abrasives are used in the numerous auto polishes on the market - probably a number of different compounds/minerals. I think you would find Bon Ami to be coarser (not sure about harder) than most products used to polish auto paint. Maybe someone from 3M, Norton, Meguiars, etc. is lurking out there and can give you some reliable info. . .

[lipshurt]

every auto paint compund even the finest leaves scratches.

Bon ami is much less coarse than flitz polish, which is very fine also. people use flitz for polishing clear plastic wind screens etc.

Bon ami makes a real nice valve lapping compound. It is finer than tripoli,

i was just wondering how it compares to what the captain was describing

Doug M
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Greenleaf]

Funny, just a couple of hours ago I was working on a 1 1/2 bore Bb/A rotary tuning slide from a '21 4B Symphony. It had a bit of a catch in it and was a bugger to turn the last 5 degrees.

Used Turtle Wax rubbing compound on it and now it's as smooth as a baby's bottom. I wouldn't want to try this on my pistons but it worked great in this application.
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[musicmork]

My brass tech told me to use Lava soap to hand clean/lap valves. It works very well.
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MARK /aka "musicmork"/ aka " The Creator "
TRUMPET: Getzen , Olds
MOUTHPIECES Bach 3-C, Schilke 13a4a
CORNET: Holton Galaxy (Awesome horn)
KEYBOARDS: Kurzweil PC88MX,Yamaha S-30, Casio Privia 575R

[forrest]

[lipshurt]

Brass "techs" like to use lava soap because it cuts fast. It also stays imbedded in the brass for a long and just keeps on cutting. A few months later your valve is worn out. Lava has pumice which is about the last thing you want to use. Pretty popular with brass "techs" though.

It will iron out lots of kinks in a casing and do it super fast. No argument there!


I used to have some 4000 grit garnet compound suspended in oil.

I would guess that mcMaster-carr would have it.

Right now I'm liking the bon Ami. I got the tip to use Bon Ami second hand from bob reeves

doug m
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Capt.Kirk]

You know I have never tried Bon Ami on a trumpet. I have used it on small engines to break glaze and restore oil regulation on the cylinder walls and i have used Bon Ami on coffee pots but not much else. Land Rover and General Motors both used to recommend a teaspoon or two down the throat of their carberators with the engine turning about 2000 RPM's to score the cylinder walls and break glaze that was causing oil consumption.I believe this was before they figured out that Cross Hatching the cylinders would do this or prevent much of this. SO Bon Ami has been around a long time and has been used off target for some time.

In fact when I read an add on some web site selling a product called Valve Magic and it listed it as a white powder that was water soluble my first thought was Bon Ami but again having not used it on trumpet valves I can not recommend it! I might have to buy some next time I go shopping and mix xome with water and try rubing it between my fingers to see what I think. Until I at the least rub it between my fingers to compare grit I am going to hold off on making any judgments about it! I have an old trumpet I can try it on as well that I am planing a valve refit on so no matter what happens it is not going to harm it.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[musicmork]

[Capt.Kirk]

1000 grit diamond paste is about as aggressive as I would ever use! It is water based so rinsing it out is not a problem and i does not embed in the horn according to Feerre's! 4000 Grit sounds even better though I am not a huge fan of overly aggressive compounds even when I paint a car I would rather spend a little extra time with a finer cutting compound then save a few minutes and go too aggressive! I am big believer in the idea that "You can always remove more material but you cannot put it back easily if you take too much off!"!!

It listed Silica right on the side of the container it had no aluminum or ceramics in it or it would be listed 3M pretty good about listing the important stuff on side. This is a retail product not a professional product so they are not going to give the average Joe anything he can easily get into trouble with! If I wanted something like that I would go to Car Quest and pick up some 3M Fast Cut or Quick Cut intended for professional body shops it is much more aggressive and non-dimishing and it is easy to get into trouble and over buff and burn paint with! So I under stand your worries the last thing we need is some ham fisted newbie going to NAPA and picking up some 240 gritt valve lapping compound and ruining their valves! I think Olds was using something like that towards the end when they had 10000's of returned Olds Ambassadors and Medalists for valves that would not budge in the bores or stuck badly!I have one like that from the around late 1978 early 1979 that has cross hatching on other wise perfect valves that are also within specification to this day.

I also should add that on one Getzen I own which still has better compression then even most new trumpets I used a drill and old 1990's style automotive rubbing compound(listed as clear coat safe) and it left no scratches on the valves at all. In fact these valves look like they are brand new and are mirror bright. I used Kerosenes to clean most of the stuff out of the inside of the valve bores. Then I used Purple Engine degrease in my tube like I always do mixed with warm water to clean anything left that the kerosene did not remove. Sometimes I use Naphtha (lighter fluid) you know like dissolves like! I have this most excellent valve mop that is like shag carpet that does a wonderful job mopping the bore. I just make sure I rinse well with cold water and that no fibers are left int he bore! You never want any abrasive to be left behind!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[supportlivejazz]

I want all you abrasive "experts" to look down at the bottom of my post and read the list of horns I own and play. Now, if you or anyone else ever hears me talk about or sees me actually using most of the stuff y'all think is so appropriate to apply to fine trumpets, please come to my house and steal all my horns and replace them with horns that are of low enough value that they aren't worth spending money to have a great tech work on or have a valve re-plate/re-fit done when the valves are worn. Until then, don't even bring most of this stuff onto my property. Really, if we are talking about fine horns that get played, then I just don't get all this abrasives obsession. If we are talking about beaters or old horns that have limited value, hell, use an acetylene torch on them if it makes any improvement. Who cares... they aren't worth putting money into anyway.

I am finding all these abrasive updates and reports... well... abrasive.

If anyone who really doesn't know fine horns and how to maintain them comes around here, they'll be in the automotive and soap sections at Wallyworld thinking they have found the miracle cure and they'll be home grinding and polishing and LAPPING (eewwww... maybe it's just being able to say lapping that has you all so excited and enthusiastic) on their brandy new Strad or Lawler or they'll be destroying that old Martin Committee that used to belong to grandpa but now it's MINE!!! but maybe I can make the valves FASTER.

Give me a break



Ahhhh... I feel so much better now. Thank you.

And now back to our discussion.
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Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet






"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."

[ConnArtist]

My goal is to ever bop hard enough that I:
a) deserve an expensive horn, and
b) notice the valve speed (or lack thereof) is actually limiting my playing.


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"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML

[supportlivejazz]