Sheer Chops vs. Impeccable Taste

_bugleboy · Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:32 pm Post subject:

Author Sheer Chops vs. Impeccable Taste -- Who wins?
BeboppinFool
Regular Member

Joined: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 36
From: Candler, NC
Posted: 2002-08-15 00:55
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Here's one to kick around. I'm talking about improvising jazz musicians here, mostly, but I suppose it could also apply to guys who only read notes off a page, too.

I believe that guys with amazing chops and technique are impressive initially, but people can't listen to that kind of stuff over and over again. It makes the ear grow weary.

However, I believe that guys with average chops and technique but with incredible taste and creative wit are the ones that people enjoy listening to more and more as time goes on. Subtlety grows on audiences.

The problem with this theory is that when you go to a live performance, the guy with all the chops & technique appears to "win" the most applause and accolades. The guy who's being tasteful and subtle will appear to "come in second" (or last).

But when you listen to recordings again and again, how much of that showy stuff can you take repeatedly?

Think about the "desert island" scenario, where you only have a few recordings to listen to for the rest of your life. Are you going to want something spectacular and dazzling or something subtle and tasteful?

What do you think about that?

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Rich Willey
http://www.boptism.com
5 Mountain Heritage Place, Candler, NC 28715
828-665-3864 / Fax 503 214 7155
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Perry D'Andrea
Regular Member

Joined: Jan 30, 2002
Posts: 71
From: San Francisco (formerly Athens, GA)
Posted: 2002-08-15 02:55
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Rich,

I think that, even in a live setting, the player who has a good strong handle on playing the horn (this is a given) who also bares his soul with no inhibitions in his playing, and communicates those bared inner parts like a true exhibitionist with impeccable elegance, this player will almost invariably steal that screamer's thunder.

I know this from my own experience in my criminal activities. However, if the screamer ALSO has the expressive ability to the above extent, then.. well forget it- if the screamer also has THAT ability, he's world-famous. No question about it- that's how rare THAT combination is. And in that case, you're fortunate just to be on the stage with such a player.

pd
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"Don't forget- P R A C T I C E ." -Doc Severinsen

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jgadvert
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2002
Posts: 315
From: Long Island, NY
Posted: 2002-08-15 13:25
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Yes this topic doesnt belong here but I couldnt resist responding. But maybe it does(I have proof of the point I make below!)

The guy with great skill and technique was the one who got the most appaluse?. Where was this? (was it a show with lots of trumpet players and musicians in the audience or some type of competition?)

I believe (and have proven in my market) that a musician with even average skills can easily beat the pants off "Mr wonderful" if he puts on an "appropriately entertaining show "to a given audience. Things like unique style, creativity, showmanship(and simply working smart) can help one to achieve superior results. This is tuff for "Mr Wonderful" to swallow/accept but thats the way it is.

By working smart, I have much greater success (my proof-much more work) than some of the local "Monster players" in my market.

This begs the question..What is success?
Most, not all would say learning to be a technically great player. Those of you reading posts know I beg to differ.
No, this is not a cop out for the importance of developing good skills(don't even go there!)

God Bless America... land of opportunity.

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DaveH
Veteran Member

Joined: Nov 21, 2001
Posts: 149 Posted: 2002-08-15 14:44
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In my opinion, part of the answer to this lies in the above post where there is reference made to who is listening.
Since it does seem that many trumpet players are most impressed by technical skills and high range playing, that would seem to be preferred if the audience was composed primarily of other trumpet players.
However,if the audience was of broader composition, probably it would take more than pyrotechnics all evening to keep their attention, and in fact, might even become irritating after while for those who just would like to hear someone play a song with good tone and in the normal range where most notes are written.
It appears there is room for both kinds - however,most audiences are broader than just a group of trumpet players, so it would be good to do other things well also.
Consider Herb Alpert. Not a technical or high range player by any means, BUT lots of applause,accolades,record sales,sold-out concerts during the Tijuana Brass days,etc.
Yes,some might say,it was a novelty or gimmick. I rather think not. Instead, it was an original sound and style and did much to popularize instrumental music in general and trumpet in particular in a guitar dominated era.
Herb focused more on playing things that were fun and enjoyable to listen to for mass audiences.As a result, he sold millions and millions of records. Probably he does not rank high among the trumpet players who are best known for high notes or technical skills, but it doesn't seem that mattered too much when you examine his success over 40 years in the music business.
Yes, I know there is more to success than money - but I wouldn't turn down even a fraction of Herb's money doing something that I enjoyed doing as much as trumpet playing.
Gee......I might even be able to afford to try out - no,even BUY all those horns that we talk about here all the time - I could have a different horn for every day of the week. Hmmm.....today I think it will be the gold plated Wild Thing,no,maybe the Monette,or maybe one of the several Kanstul Signatures - maybe the one with my name engraved on the bell?????

[ This Message was edited by: DaveH on 2002-08-15 14:50 ]

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jgadvert
Veteran Member

Joined: Jan 05, 2002
Posts: 315
From: Long Island, NY
Posted: 2002-08-15 14:55
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Boy, I'm rackin up the posts here!

Dave H(fantastic post!). I agree that Herb Alpert is one of the greatest of all time based on "the total packages they deliver"(I also love Harry James, another great showman, for similar reasons). I figure folks would laugh if I suggested either one but what the heck? Both are at least(or were) very good players. Great? Who knows? I question the definiton of great.

BTW, Doc is not only a technical monster but also a showman so I must mention him here too! Very few could debate his greatness from any evaluative perspective.

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-15 15:34 ]

Perry dAndrea · Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 1:59 pm Post subject:

Let's not forget that Harry James was a technical monster as well!

pd
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"Don't forget- P R A C T I C E ." -Doc Severinsen

http://perrydandrea.com/doc.wav

tom turner · Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 3:21 pm Post subject:

Hi Rich,

You wrote: "The problem with this theory is that when you go to a live performance, the guy with all the chops & technique appears to "win" the most applause and accolades. The guy who's being tasteful and subtle will appear to "come in second" (or last).

But when you listen to recordings again and again, how much of that showy stuff can you take repeatedly?

Think about the "desert island" scenario, where you only have a few recordings to listen to for the rest of your life. Are you going to want something spectacular and dazzling or something subtle and tasteful?

What do you think about that?"
____________________________

Well Rich, . . . I'm one of those greedy guys . . . I want in ALL!!!

Flashy technique, awesome range . . . and the taste to know when to simply "play!"

However, this is probably just an impossible dream . . .

As to what would I have on a deserted island if I could only have a few recordings. Gee . . . I ain't gonna worry about that unless it happens.

Sometimes I want to listen to a trumpeter to "mellow out." Other times I need some fireworks and intensity to keep me awake on some of my long road trips. I can't imagine giving any of my recordings up either.

No compromise for the bearded "adopted" Georgia redneck (originally from Florida, home of the "Hanging Chads!") . . . I ain't even gonna go there . . . and probably can't get "there" either!

Warmest regards,

Tom Turner

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

Many, many years ago I heard a much younger Clark Terry in a jam session at a jazz festival that featured a bunch of heavy-weight trumpet players. They all took turns blowing some amazing blues choruses one after the other. I mean these guys were all over their f#@king horns. Then, at the end of the line, Clark began playing softly, effectively, musically, in his usual impecable manner and litterally blew those guys away without even ascending to a high C. There was a lesson in there somewhere.
Larry Smithee

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-06 17:52 ]

_Don Herman · Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:57 am Post subject:

Just to prove I listen to more than trumpets...

Many years back, a famous guitar duo was in a club (Chicago area, I believe) and after the band finished a set (I was running sound) these two asked to sit in on a jam session. A young squirt had been hamming it up, ripping riffs as fast as possible. First of the famous two stepped up and traded licks, gradually speeding up the tempo until the youngster fell apart, then slowed a bit and traded licks. Tastefulness in maturity was very apparent, and the kids was impressed -- and thanked the other player profusely.

Then, just to prove that he hadn't gotten rid of all the ego, he said to the older of the famous duo something like "hey, poops, think you can kep up?" The young kid, hot off the first exchange and feeling his oats, took off. Older gent waited until he got the timiing ('bout four beats) then played a beautiful slow coutermelody to the changes that was amazing. Like the first, the older gent pushed slowly up until the young guy fell apart, then picked up the fast licks and sped them up to a whole new level!

Jaws dropped, cheers began, and the two famous players shook hands and dropped their arms around the youngster to make sure he was included in all the hullabulloo. Naturally, the youngster asked just who these two were.

The younger famous player was Al Dimeola.

The older, smiled and said -- "it's on your guitar" -- Les Paul. Just like the commercial, but a long, long time before! I suspect he'd been saying it a while.

Grace in music, emotion in song, chops to burn no matter the axe of choice...
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

bulos · Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:18 pm Post subject:

to answer the "desert island" question I will quote the late Don Goldie ........... "anything by Louis Armstrong, INCLUDING Hello Dolly" ........
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Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

groovinhigher · Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:16 pm Post subject:

I've always thought it was very tasteful to have great chops, i.e. Doc Severinson, Maynard Ferguson, Walt Johnson, Wayne Bergeron, Arturon Sandoval, see what I mean... I know there are all kinds of players, but I see no contradiction in TRULY great chops, chops and taste do not have to be mutually incompatible, as guys who get on that high a level also have played so much music, and have pursued it with such a passion, they generally are very tasteful, very exciting, and interesting to listen to. Don't get me wrong, I dig lot's of other guys playing and styling too, but I had to share that observation or opinion, as the above mentioned are without a doubt among many people's favorite trumpet players, usually part of a wide and eclectic collection, at least with my friends. And yes, there are some very tasty cats with less "technical" capabilities in one area or another, but great chops in other ways, nontheless... the whole premise of this topic is kind of shaky anyway, lol... the neat thing about music and the trumpet is you can dig it all baby!!!

_________________
Rich Wetzel
Trumpet Artist / Band Leader / Holton - Leblanc Clinician
"Rich Wetzel's Groovin Higher Jazz Orchestra"
http://www.richwetzel.com
http://www.groovinhigher.com

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ZeroMan · Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Jul 2002 Posts: 1112

groovinhigher · Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2002 10:08 am Post subject:

Zeroman, I think you misunderstood my reply. I of course, like most musicians, LOVE and totally dig Miles, and a lot of other cats, hold them in the utmost regard as some of the best musicians and our favorite trumpet players to ever grace the planet. My point was that it does not have to be a debate of sheer chops vs impeccable taste, that the two are not necessarily mutually incompatible... The thing that I love about trumpet, and jazz in particular, is you can have so many players approach the horn totally different from the other, all playing other styles, colors, ideas, and all of it can be in your collection, all of it can be fun, worthy, incredible stuff, etc... I respect and share your opinion and regard for Miles and many, many others too, just wanted to say that those cats are all great trumpet players, they all have great chops in different ways...

The premise itself kind of sets up some strange discussions, but I would bet if we met in person or compared notes, we would be surprised to see how many of us listen to a very wide and eclectic collection of all types of players... We could get into a whole digression of great bebop chops, great ballad chops, great lead chops, great legit chops, the point is they can all be great, they can all be worthy, and that this kind of debate is kind of over whose hill this is in a sand storm anyway... Chops can mean so many things to so many people... When someone works on any or all of these things, and does it on a very high level, with real passion, that is tasteful to me.

P.S. I just knew this would be weird topic to wade in on, lol...

_________________
Rich Wetzel
Trumpet Artist / Band Leader / Holton - Leblanc Clinician
"Rich Wetzel's Groovin Higher Jazz Orchestra"
http://www.richwetzel.com
http://www.groovinhigher.com

[ This Message was edited by: groovinhigher on 2002-09-07 13:19 ]

[ This Message was edited by: groovinhigher on 2002-09-07 13:25 ]

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ZeroMan · Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Jul 2002 Posts: 1112

groovinhigher · Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2002 1:18 pm Post subject:

Well put zeroman, I totally agree.

_________________
Rich Wetzel
Trumpet Artist / Band Leader / Holton - Leblanc Clinician
"Rich Wetzel's Groovin Higher Jazz Orchestra"
http://www.richwetzel.com
http://www.groovinhigher.com

[ This Message was edited by: groovinhigher on 2002-09-07 16:19 ]

edtaylor · Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:15 pm Post subject:

Don,

I emailed your post "Just to prove I listen to more than trumpets... " to my son who when learning jazz on guitar tried to keep up with Al's LPs while playing on a Les Paul Custom. He got a kick out of your post.
_________________
Ed Taylor . . . a Messianic gentile