What if Bach does THIS?!?

TrptSTP · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:28 am Post subject: What if Bach does THIS?!?

I tried for a dramatic title. I tried...

So, Hack001 and I were bs'ing about trumpets yesterday. I'm sure none of you do that. Well, here are my ideas from the conversation:

What would happen if:
1.) Bach got rid of the Artisan line
2.) Bach would now make all of their Stradivarius trumpets to the original specs (i.e., two parts valve clusters, hand-hammered bells, using the actual large z-braces instead of the Kanstul ones on their "custom" horns, etc.)
3.) Charged no more for these horns than anything else. That is in the ballpark of $2k like they are now.

What I believe would happen:
1.) Lots of Bachs go up for sale on ebay and TH.
2.) Massive sales for Bach.

What do you guys think?

-Steve

Hack001 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Jun 2004 Posts: 1685

AAAND--

4.) Figure out the old brass alloy they used to use.

5.) Ditch the soap popsicle they put in the bell to bend the crook and use the old metal alloy

6.) ACTUALLY hand hammer the bells, scrap the hydraulic punch

7.) get rid of the "special acoustic treatment" (i.e. annealing). No one wants that.

8.) steel rim wires

Basically make Bach's the way Selmer promised old man Schrotenbach they would be done back in the 60's. I think its ridiculous they're charging another $600 for the way the horns are supposed to be made in the first place
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Practicing is for the insecure.

jophst · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:24 am Post subject:

I agree .. I can go on all day about the Bach designs, but I believe they had it right in the 60s during the company change. Was it REALLY broke? Did they REALLY need to fix it???

Horns are generally heavier now, and we also as a generation play on larger mouthpieces. This is why you see a WEALTH of Mt. Vernon 7C's and 10 1/2C's ... they just matched well to those horns at the time.

All of the above sounds great .. don't forget the brass valve guides.

I also am a believer in the really fat duckfoot looking bell braces which spread out the tension (if any) in the connection rather than a point load.

The horns (especially in the Vernon era) were a bit narrower ... a trait you see now in the Yamaha Artist Chicago horns, as well as the Laskey conversions.

Perhaps the only other factory option you need is a PVA, and you are good to go. In my mind (even though I LOVE Yamaha's), Sonare has made the stride to provide an off the shelf best buy for a quality pro-horn, i.e. Blackburn leadpipe, PVA, etc..
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oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180

This comes to mind. I don't know why.

http://www.khaaan.com/

bike&ed · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837

crzytptman · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject:

Yous guys are saying the same things I said when that Artisan line first came out. I think they should make the current Strad a step up horn, and the Artisan the throwback Strad. I haven't had the chance to play any Artisans yet. They were supposed to have an Artisan event at the store where I teach, but it hasn't happened yet.
What you are describing is how Kanstul makes horns. I have played many new Bachs, and my Celebration makes them sound like student horns. It is very Bachish, which is why I'm playing it and not my 30 yr old 72*. By the way, none of the new Bachs I've played can match old "Crusty" either.
Forget Bach. Since they raised their prices, just get a Kanstul and Flip set it up for you. Better yet, just get a Celebration (or Wild Thing, if that suits you!).
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

TrptSTP · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject:

Actually crzytptman, Flip's products are not really my thing. Though for me the 72 bell is one of the only bells. One of the only "37s" I've really enjoyed trying was the Kanstul version. Hack001 and I were joking about the new bach enhanced radius ferrules, or whatever they are called. I pulled out my Kanstul 920. Oh look at ferrules on it. Gee gosh.

shofarguy · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject:

bike&ed · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837

ThatDude · Veteran Member Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 372

Don Lee · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject:

bike&ed · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837

ThatDude · Veteran Member Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 372

bike&ed · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 1837

shofarguy · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject:

In business, a supplier is NOT a competitor. Kanstul has been a supplier of parts, assemblies and whole horns for years. Actually, they began as such some time before Zig was persuaded to develop his own brand. So, keep your shirts on Bach-philes, Zig is your friend!

Do some rudimentary investigation and see just how much the tooling for one little Z-brace costs. Then do some more research to see if the investment will have a sufficient, positive effect on sales in order to justify the expense, either in a higher price point or increased numbers, even look at play qualities for significant improvement.

My guess is that such a move would have a detrimental or negligible effect on the sales and the quality of the product. So, purchasing an existing part from a supplier is not only very attractive but beneficial for the company, its investors, and customers. Businesses have functioned this way for well over a hundred (like forever) years.

To quote the Professor in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, "Good heavens, what do the teach in schools these days?"

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

JonB · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:49 pm Post subject:

What's the general consensus on the Artisan line? Last I heard there was a lot of speculation of "well, they look nice, but how do they play/LOL BACH HAS INCONSISTENCIES LOL LOL LOL". Has anyone played one and if so how do they stack up against the Stadivarius line?
_________________
Jon
Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS

TrptSTP · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject:

65strad · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject:

custom Bb SN#2008(note bracing)

NY Strad old school SN#2545 (note the bracing)

I like some here, long for having Bachs made the old school way. I was lucky to have it my way, and the closest facimile to that end that I'll ever get in a new horn to the capture some of the old school specs. I would be surprised if Bach outsources their parts. I know that extensive in house fabrication was done on my horn (nickel tuning rings/slide rings/beads, valve case etc.) No acoustic treatment was done on the bell and the horn plays beautifully, and like my vintage Bachs also sounds like a Bach.

I have played the Artisan horns and wrote about them (great horns), sound like Strads with a different resonance however I prefer my custom. I think that most would agree that Bachs from the 60's and current vintage Strads have something very special in common. They sound like Strads, and their sound is what differentiates them. A Kanstul sounds like a Kanstul, Yamaha a Yamaha etc.
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602

shofarguy · Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject:

ThatDude · Veteran Member Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 372