Small end diameter of Bach 25-0 and 7 leadpipe??????

[Capt.Kirk]

Anyone know the dimensions on the Bach 25-0 and 7 pipes small end and large end????

Any leadpipe on the market that is both dark and not so open that one might fall in???LOL Trying o create a dark sounding trumpet. Going to be using a bell that is slightly faster taper and throat is on par with Bach 72. Bore is .470 trying get dark and efficiency.

Zig says most people prefer the 25-0 with this bell. I am not most people though. I am afraid a 25-0 will have too much resistance for my liking and be too bright. I feel am worried the 43 pipe will be too big. So I am thinking that the 7 pipe might be a good compromise between the 25-0 and the 43????

Ideally I want a dark fat sound with enough resistance to feel secure and make upper register work a snap.

I can always reverse the pipe and main tuning slide if it is too tight but I can not change the sound of the pipe I mean I cannot make a bright pipe sound darker.

Since I am going for a specific sound should I only worry about that and let the blow fall where it falls and just deal with it after the fact? What is more important going directly after the sound you want initially then tweaking or going for proper resistance and feel then tweaking to get the sound right???

In the past I was making repairs on trumpets that had no OEM parts available so as long as the trumpet had good intonation when I was done the specific sound concept was not that important!!! I was just trying to keep a nice vintage trumpet working. IN this case though I know what I want it to sound like so I am trying to think this trough in the hopes that I will get close to the sound I want. So I have more invested emotionally because I have a specific reason for building this trumpet I am not just making a repair????

When trying to match a bell and leadpipe up how many tries does it normally take to get what you are after sound wise????? I am guessing things do not just fall into place first try very often???


Thanks for any advice........I think I am over thinking all of this????
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[Retlaw]

Blow and sound are both important.... if both are not right you will always be disappointed with the horn and most likely not be able to play it to the best of your ability.

If you are making your own lead pipes then I would have thought you could experiment until you get it just right.... I am sure that all the great manufacturers make endless adjustments..... and have floors strewn with discarded lead pipes and swarf.

You suggest........ "I think I am over thinking all of this????" It sounds like at this stage your enjoyment comes from the thinking...but maybe it creates more anxiety than is necessary... as you said your son says... Chilllax. Ultimately the true satisfaction will come when you have produced a trumpet that is just right..... just make sure you don't leave any "solder blobs" "have no inconsistencies if you make more than one"...and don't become a "knuckle head".....What will you call your horn? Our friend Andy Taylor already has a Vulcan and a Starship....... I hope you will see the fun side of this post......

Best wishes as you build your "prototype".....

Walter

PS Have you thought about "bracing"...?

[shofarguy]

http://www.flipoakes.com/celebration.htm

B.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[shofarguy]

http://www.flipoakes.com/celebration.htm

B.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[lipshurt]

Captain

The pipe does not change the sound that much. For the pipe to change the sound drastically they would have to be drastically different. All of those pipes are very much the same and will sound very close to the same.

Other pipes like a conn vintage one 50 will sound darker but at the expense of chaging the blow a lot.

A blackburn 20 might be what you are looking for.

Really though the pioe has to match the bell intonationwise. That is critical.
You get a lot more of what you are talking about by changing tuning slides not pipes.

Bracing wont so it either.

Get yourself a dark bell if you want dark!
The yamaha 636 bell is one of the darkest. Or a 38b bell with a bigger tail soldered onto it.

Only a yamaha pipe works with that bell though. Beware

Bracing wont do it either.

Neither will adding mass.

I think you are making mistake with the 470 bore.

You should have a big bell, round slide, and big pipe on a 445 bore. That would be way better and more playable.


Have fun with it!

Ive done at least 100 such projects:)

Doug m
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[crzytptman]

[VetPsychWars]

Assuming my experience is useful, I have two horns that are identical in bore and pretty similar through the valve block. One, my red Aristocrat, has a very tight bell that doesn't flare much until you get to the end. The other, my 400, plays a lot brighter, and it has an open bell that begins to flare in the bell bow through to the end.

Based on this example, you want a bell that's tight and doesn't flare much until the end of the bell.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[65strad]

Kirk, I have no experience with the 25O or 43 leadpipe but I can share my take on the #7 pipe and how it relates to the standard 25 leadpipe.

Shortly after receiving my contest horn from Bach I mentioned to Tedd that although it is a 43G lightweight bell with a#7 leadpipe and ML bore, that it seems to be more open than my 43 standardweight bell and #25 leadpipe.

The Bach NY 7 also has the #7 leapipe but is a large bore, so I asked if my #7 leadpipe has the same venturi as the NY 7, and he confirmed that they are identical and share the same venturi opening of .351. I have no idea about the large end of the pipe.

To me and others that have played it, the new horn does have a more "open feeling" but not too much, and a bit less resistance in my opinion. It has a somewhat "darker" sound, particularly at softer dynamics. I like the blow and the sound of the combination, but I feel that anything larger may be too much work for me. I hope that helps.
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602

[Capt.Kirk]

The bore is being determined by the bell in this case. I am using a vintage bell. Ideally I would have gone with something a bit smaller like .460 just to make life easier as I have abut 3 trumpets I have repaired and about 3 I have swapped leadpipes out on in that size so I have some experience! I have a lot left to learn though because I am doing these things slowly not like it is my day job and I have a budget or anything. So I have to make a mistake in order to learn. Because this is something I am building for myself that I have wanted for some time I really want to get it close to correct the first time!

For the recorded I have a stepped bore German trumpet that needs a bell and I suspect it has a smaller then .460 bore on the bell stem looking at it. It looks tinier then my other trumpets. So once I get that bell off and measure it it might well end up being a .445 or something like that. I have a small bore cornet that is a real fire cracker to play! You can play that thing all day and all night and not get tired. It is very responsive and has excellent upper register......Thinking about making that one into a C Cornet for Church. It needs a new leadpipe so it will be easy to shorten things when I am doing the leadpipe work.

I have not set up anything yet to make my own leadpipe yet. In my mind even if I do it initially like they did before drawing them with a mandrel and sheet material I still have to learn a lot to get it right unless I simply copy someone else's leadpipe. I would prefer to learn from mother's mistakes and triumphs.

I think though that you guys are right. If I decide to go this route I am going to have to be willing to waste a lot of material and make a lot of mistakes. Building a home made drawing table is the easy part! It is getting a good design then consistently reproducing it that is the tricky part. One of the advantages to cutting one out of solid bar stock with CNC machinery is that you know that each one will be an exact replica of the one before it but equipment cost is the big hurdle!

So right now I am still in the phase of using off the shelf parts. Hurts creativity some what and limits flexibility a bit but it cuts out the learning curve and machine/tooling cost.

I might try the OEM leadpipe that is on the trumpet ans go from their! I do have something similar to a Bach 6 and 25 pipe laying around the house so I can try those if I must!

T
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[lipshurt]

CrazyTman wrote

<<<<<I think you are making mistake with the 470 bore.

You should have a big bell, round slide, and big pipe on a 445 bore. That would be way better and more playable.

Wow - how big would that bell and pipe have to be to compensate for that little bore? Nothing wrong with a .470 bore if it's done right.>>>>>

Well, the bell to the yamaha 636 is came stock on a 445 bore. It's teh same big bell as the shew bell (636B, 6310z, 8310z) in size and shape, but it's much thicker. And it's way darker, which is saying something because the 6310z bell is pretty dark too.

The 38B bell of course came stock mated to a .438 bore, and that combination worked great. It's the same shape as the 10B and 6B (lee morgan) bell. Great dark sound.

Putting a big dark bell on a 470 bore would mean cutting off the bell tail and adding a ferrule and a 470 pipe. It would probably match right up actually cuz that tail is conical, at least on the 38b bell.

But the pipe has to be compatible. Not everything works with everything else. The only bach pipe that works with those big bells is a 25, or maybe a 25-O.

I did a project similar to the captains in the 1980's.... here is how it went

I had a real nice .468 valve body with a brand new nickle valve job form anderson. It was a yamaha body that I got as repair parts from yamaha when I worked in a shop. That is why the valves needed to be honed. I sent it to anderson cuz I wanted nickel valves. No "yamaloy"! It was a great valve body. (now it's a C trumpet body floating around san diego)

I made the whole horn interchangable....the bell and the pipe came off, and then you could tighten the braces with nuts, so the thing was hard braced. Not flimsy like a tuning bell setup.

First I had the big 636 bell on it without a new tail. Not good enough, so I did the 468 bell tail. Way better. had to cut the tail off. No biggie.
With That I had a meeuwsen #3 leadpipe (when I used to make leadpipes!) which was BIG, and had a great sound and intonation, and really dark. Nelson mills in houston sounded great on this rig, by the way, but he was a pure jazz player, and he never played it all night either. I wanted a horn that I could play everything on (lead-legit-jazz)
That rig proved too much for me, and I was young and strong at the time. I had been playing lead in a big band 6 nights a week for months straight. I got tired on the big rig, but I never had to warm up either. Weird.

So then I went to a leadpipe of mine that was way smaller, and then even smaller, till I got back down to a bach 25 pipe. I was getting second opinions from several people by letting them play it. There was a real good classical player from indiana and she hated the big bell. She convinced me that the big pipes were wrong for the bell. When she played it I could hear things that I did not hear playing it myself, until she pointed it out. Even then, the smallest pipe I had was still not good for that bell and bore.

She liked the bigger pipes with a selmer K-modified bell with a 468 tail. It was way brighter, but the combo worked. I Played that rig for at least a year or two. It was now not a dark horn though.
With the big bell, big bore, and big pipe, it was really cool for the first half hour. I'm serious I never had to warm up with that rig. I remember playing the patty page show for a week, and after the first night, I came to the show and opened my case right before the downbeat. That drove the third player nuts. I think I did that cuz I was getting tired by the end, and if the show was 15 minutes longer, I would not make it! Four sets on a commercial big band was tough on that thing. I did that MAYBE for about a month and gave up.

Then at some point I had a shop do a re-lacquer of it and the "tech" buffed right through the best pipe I had, and I had lost that mandrel along the way... So I had to make a whole new horn, and I abandoned the big bore body, made it into a C trumpet. Then went with a bach ML body for a long time.

Yada yada yada.....Big bell, big bore, big pipe.....hard to manage... Cool as a novelty horn though

just one person's experience

Doug M[/quote]
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Capt.Kirk]

That is my delima(too far off for spell check to correct lol) in a nut shell! I want dark but I want the horn to be manageable! Anything I build for myself I plan on my oldest boy owning or using at some point and maybe far down the road the grandchildren etc.....

So I do not want a horn that I can play in my computer/HIFI room for 30 minutes at a time that is going to kill anyone that try's to use it in a legit fashion on a gig. I am already preparing my son for the idea of doing weddings,funeral and such so the seed is already planted! I do not play outside my room and the occasional pawn shop but I still remember what it was like as a young man to get out their and do gig's and learn from the older guys!

I fel like I am trying to get Corvette performance and Cavalier fuel economy!LOL

How does this sound then as a means of "eating my cake and having it too"???? So how does the follow sound then for a flexible trumpet that can be dark and creamy but still do legit stuff?????

1) Fairly Large Dark well focused Bell profile slightly faster then a Bach 72
2) Tighter pipe then I would ideally like as in Bach 25-25-0 as Mr. Kanstul recommends.
3) Keep the D shaped tuning slide and maybe get a round slide as well to go with it?
4) Use a Monette MP with a deep flugal like cup for the dark fat sound.
5) Use something like a medium shallow 3C type MP for more legit sounding stuff?
6) A set of Harrelson medium heavy trim kit in copper.
7) I have considered putting a trigger on the main tuning slide for instant intonation adjustments and quasi tremel/trill(sp) like key effect like woodwinds and flutes have.

It is all lacquered brass right now but I plan on silver plating it! I am going to send it to Anderson's more then likely nothing tricky with the finish just a plain Jane polished silver. I would love to gold wash the bell and 1st and main tuning slide but I am thinking cost will kill me with the price of gold being what it is!

When I get the bell in the mail I will let everyone know what it is. I think most will find it absolutely intoxicating!!!!

Thanks for all the advice. I can see now that I need to make sure it has balance and is not a 30 minute magical beast that is going to kill the player!LOL With so many MP's today to chose from for effect I think I see now how important it is to not bias this thing too the extreme! I can always buy a flugel latter on right????LOL
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[rockford]

[Capt.Kirk]

Get out it did not take Bach 40 years to build a decent trumpet?!?!?! How did that number come to be? If it did he must not of been as talented as Schilke and Benge then at Coping French Bessons then learning as they went along!

The way I understand it his problem is that he was not trained as a Brass Technician so he had to learn a lot of basic skills and metal working as he went along. That is a hard way to learn if you do not have some good text or someone to teach you etc..... Another problem was that he did not make all the parts himself so he was at the mercy of other when it came to quality control like Blessing suppling the valves and such! Another problem was that his work force was not the best of the best Conn could pay more and sucked up most of the local talent.

Are we counting the time he might have spent tinkering around in his garage or kitchen like what I am doing???? You know he did not start out with a pencil and a clean sheet of paper?!?! HE initially copied French Besson of the time like most did initially why? Well you build what you can sell the most of initially I would guess!

I am not wanting to design my own pipe so much as I want one cast or machined from solid bar stock. In the mean time I would settle for one much thicker then standard and anything besides yellow brass. I hate yellow brass for a leadpipe because it rot's to easily. I hate the fact that so many really good companies like Kanstul for instance still use mostly yellow brass for leadpipes you might as well pre-drill pits in it because that is what is going to happen in no time! If $140 Ebay trumpets can use rose brass, red brass and copper for leadpipes then it obviously is not a cost issue or it should not be.
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[rockford]

I didn't say it took Bach 40 years to make a decent trumpet. It's clear from reading his personal writings, published writings and reviewing the shop cards (over 20,000 of them) and owning, studying and inspecting literally hundreds of NY and Mt. Vernon trumpets that Bach was continually trying to come up with improvements to his instruments and mouthpieces. They continually evolved up until the time he sold the company to Selmer. Here's an example.....One of the most noticeable changes made around the time Selmer took over Mt. Vernon production was the return to the longer leadpipe set up of earlier years while retaining the taller tuning slide. You'll notice the Selmer/Mt. Vernons from 1961-65 play better in tune and with more focus to the sound by design than the Bach/Mt. Vernons from around 1956-61. Both of these horns have "25" leadpipes but they are different versions of the "25" pipe. Ever hear of a 1960 model 7C mouthpiece? You wont because they were never marketed that way. Still the 7C mouthpiece underwent design changes even as late as 1960 The point is that these trumpets and mouthpieces were continually evolving throughout Bach's ownership of the company. That doesn't mean the previous versions of his products weren't "decent" at all. I never met Vincent Bach in person but it seems, from talking and interviewing those who knew him, that Bach was obsessed with coming up with new improvements to his designs throughout his career. It's what drove him.
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

[Capt.Kirk]

Rockford, Thanks for explaining what you meant because I completely mis-understood you the first time around! To be honest I am a fan of continuous improvement as long as the said improvements are not for cost reductions and actually serve to make the trumpet play better and more in tune! If the so called "improvement" is only for cost savings I think one should leave well enough alone. Improvements should come from evolution of existing products taken in new directions with experimentation. You should be able to tell show made something by looking at it. If I haded someone from the 1950's and 1960's a modern Bach Strad unlabeled they would not have a clue who made it because visually they are so distinctly different!

They only pipe I think Selmer should consider tweaking is the 25 pipe! I think that pipe has issues and it hamper's upper register work when compared to the other Bach pipe.
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[rockford]

[Capt.Kirk]

Well I am betting my finished trumpet will blow the doors off anything Bach has for sale currently! I just need to find someone who can really take it to the limit. When it done I will have to have someone host the sound files so they can go up on this site. I always play to win so rest assured I will not bring the girl out to the prom until she is ready to turn heads!!!!LOL

I already know I am not good enough to push the trumpet to it's real limit! I know 3 people though 1 is a pro and the other two are amateur musicians but still very advanced players that I can count on to push it hard and reveal any weak spots in her! I will probably take it to the H.S. first and listen hard then make any adjustments then take it to the two high level amateurs and listen hard then to the pro!
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[Capt.Kirk]

Well I think I chose a leadpipe out of my collection for the up coming project.


Spec.'s

Small End Taken in 3 different locations .337-.339 inch's not perfectly round and it has not been flared at all this is a virgin pipe.

Big End same as above .447-.450 inch's

Wall thickness she is a thick beast .029 inch's a tad thicker at the small end around .031 inch's

I am going to reverse this girl and use it for this project. I am going to use a heavier receiver with some curves as well. It is my hope that in reversed format it will not be too restrictive and will work nicely with the large bell I have on the way! Stay tuned once the bell arrives I will tell you guy what she is!

I thought about doing some sheet bracing on this one but I think I am going to take the less is more approach on this one.I was going to copy the Bravura's style of bracing cut from solid sheet of copper instead of brass. I was not going copy the eagle wing pattern of Jasons though! Their is imitation then their is down right coping which I think is in poor taste when it is out right copy!

I was thinking about a trigger on the 1st slide but now am considering the old school adjustable saddle so as not to disturb the bracing and in this area. The stock horn is pretty stoutly braced both the outer slides and the bell to outer slide area. If I reversed this area to go reversed 1st I think it would affect the sound in a major way. If I put the trigger on it will fit me great as I like triggers but it might be a bit of a pain if my son should play it. How many student trumpets or even pro trumpets have triggers on them today as the standard?????

I am still considering the main tuning slide trigger though. Sure not as cool and a triggered tuning bell but awfully close in function. Great for solo work but a fast way to tick off the rest of the section!!!LOL


What do you guys think trigger on the main tuning slide or not? It would give you tremendous amount of tuning ability on the fly!

What about deleting the 3rd tuning slides water key? Worth the effort or not so much?
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!