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Tuning Slide Bracing and Leadpipe



 
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SC-jazzman
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Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:31 pm    Post subject: Tuning Slide Bracing and Leadpipe Reply with quote

Does the different bracing on a horn make the horn sound different? I mean does one way suit a certain style of music or playing. I’m interested in playing jazz and if I get good enough I hope to play in my city’s community band. I’m pretty new to trumpet but not music. I’ve played guitar for over 30 years. But back to horns. I have a Jupiter that has double braces and my Getzen Super Deluxe which has no braces. I can definitely tell a difference in the sound of these two trumpets though I can’t explain the difference being new to trumpet. These two trumpets should get me through for awhile but I eventually want to buy a new professional trumpet and was wondering what I need to look for. Does the bracing matter? I’m looking at the XO line of horns and they have them with single and double braces. Which would work best for the type of music I’ll be playing? Second part. Should I look for a trumpet with a reverse leadpipe? Thanks in advance for your advice.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can start your research here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSuuI3yJgOA

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62613

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1049382

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=82122&sid=059607a80fc8a59d43d7f2e103a6ba41

If you want to evaluate effect of the number and placement of braces, you need to compare trumpets that are identical except for the bracing.

If you are willing to spend $200 or $300 on two "shopgoodwill" student Yamaha trumpets and learn how to do some simple soldering, you could see for yourself. Keep one trumpet as it is for a comparison then start removing and moving and adding bracing on the second trumpet.
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SC-jazzman
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Joined: 13 Jul 2022
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Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the links. I searched but guess I didn’t use the right keywords.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A trumpet is a complete system where every part interacts with every other part. That said, those braces affect the feel and the blow of the horn more than they affect the tone in my experience. Those braces are sort of analogous to the action height on a guitar.

Tone comes from bell shape, materials used (everywhere), bore size, how well the instrument is put together, total mass, where the mass is located, the radius of each curve and length of each tube, leadpipe taper... The list goes on seemingly forever. Then you go through a similarly long parallel list with your choice of mouthpiece....

So, I wouldn't worry too much about specs or which design features to look for in the future. Just like you probably didn't think about which type of strings or what pickups were on your guitar when you first learned. As you get better and join groups, your musicianship will tell you what tone qualities you want for those groups (every band is different in practice, even if they are similar in concept) and then you can figure out how to achieve what you want.

As a side note, I'd probably pick one of the two horns you have and build your foundation on that. I've found repetitive horn switching to be detrimental to my beginning students in the past.
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
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SC-jazzman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As a side note, I'd probably pick one of the two horns you have and build your foundation on that. I've found repetitive horn switching to be detrimental to my beginning students in the past.


I do this. I use my Jupiter as my main horn. The other I got more or less to collect as I had the cornet version already. The Jupiter is a great playing horn and I have no doubt it will suit me for some time to come.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think double-bracing, generally, would make your horn more "legit" than you want. But this is based on just the horns with that I've played. If you want a new horn for big band playing, you can't do any better than the new (not older versions) of the Getzen Eterna Classic.

If you want to take a chance on used, consider a Benge 3X.

The end result of what you get from a horn goes way beyond bracing alone. Other aspects of instrument build can cancel out tendencies from other features. trumpet brand, model, bracing, mouthpiece, even your own mental concept of sound goes into the mix. Too much to focus on any one thing. In the end, play the horns and get the one that works the best for you.

caveats Chicago, Burbank or LA Benge not a UMI made one.
And I'd go with an established dealer like Dillon, ACB, Horn Trader, etc. which have good return policies. A little higher priced than buying from individuals on eBay etc. More assurance if you are an inexperienced buyer.

BTW, I have a Benge and have owned the Getzen -and don't ask about how many others.
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SC-jazzman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies. My Getzen Super Deluxe without braces sounds amazing. I like the sound much better than the Jupiter. But the Jupiter has a finger ring on the third slide and a thumb saddle so I use it to learn on. The other thing about the Getzen is the valves feel a little sluggish. Maybe I’m not using the right oil for it. I use blue juice which seems to work fine on my Jupiter. I think the sluggish feeling is weird because my Super Deluxe cornet valves work great. Plus I’ve always heard great things about Getzen valves.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the sticky valves, the right oil is not enough. Have you thoroughly cleaned the old oil off of the valves as well as the inside of the horn?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
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SC-jazzman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For the sticky valves, the right oil is not enough. Have you thoroughly cleaned the old oil off of the valves as well as the inside of the horn?


No I guess I never thought about that. How do I go about doing this? Do I give the whole horn a bath?
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TheHighNotes
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally, I will advise 'middle of the road' equipment that best allows you to produce the innate sound concept you want to produce.

Secondarily, I will advise comfort and 'feel'.
It is a close second.

Everything from materials, to innate tension in the instrument, to bends and especially brace placement has a role in the sound of a horn.

Likely, at your level of playing, any horn will do.
And I actually mean that as a compliment.
I wouldn't worry with a 'professional' horn unless money is no object and you want to explore, or your playing actually warrants a grand or two on horns.
Enjoy the journey.

As for valves, they should be clean, and oiled thoroughly with something you like. Oiling dirt or imperfections is not productive.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As was said above, bracing is part of the whole system that makes up the instrument. One example of this was one day some years ago when I met Roger Wood and a man named Orlando that assembled trumpets from parts sourced overseas. He had two models at ASU that day. The only difference between them, he told me, was the brace placement between the mouthpiece receiver and bell. One was mounted very close to the open end of the receiver, while the other was mounted about 1/4" further down. The difference in how these two horns felt was dramatic! The model made for Roger had a nice open, easy blow. The other had really hard resistance right up front. 1/4" is all it took.

A close friend of mine, who has produced some of the worlds best trumpets, flugelhorn and cornets, likes to say, "Everything changes everything." He demonstrated this the very first day I met him, back in 2009. Still, changing the actual sound of the instrument isn't as easy. Yes, one can add heavy caps, change mouthpieces and the like, but the difference in sound is not a fundamental thing, but in the details. Richness, articulation, presence, flexibility. These are the things one can hear, if one listens for them. Timbre doesn't really change much.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, now that you know the tuning slide type is only a part of how a horn sounds and plays, when horn shopping, play as many as you can and pick the one that fits your requirements.

As far as concentrating on one function-part of a horn as a guide for the whole thing, fuhgeddaboudit.

disclaimer: I have used after-market tuning slides to add a certain dimension to some horns, but you're not there. Just don't want to be seen to be saying one thing and doing another.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject: Bracing matters Reply with quote

For sure I have strong opinions on what makes a trumpet work and I spend a great deal of time on the horns I make determining what components and how to place braces through extensive play testing. I have played at the top professional level and have the mechanical skills needed in this business. Horns from different makers have their own characteristics and generally have had input from knowledgable players to determine the design and there are some very good trumpets being made today in all price ranges. The advent of CNC technology has made tolerance variables a thing of the past but the bottom line is ending up with a balanced design which suits the majority of players. Of course different designs are aimed at players with specific needs in their work and makers offer models to suit them. You really can't say horn X plays better than horn Z as there are way too many variables involved. The same maker making the same model in quantity will have horns that vary from one to the next and that would be the advantage of a small guy making them individually one at a time with the play testing during assembly.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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