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ltkije1966 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 1229 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Any used pro horn you can find reasonably priced would be on my top 5 student horn list. _________________ Scott Kuehn |
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Wes Clarke Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 846 Location: Athens, GA
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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Student trumpets have two things other than outright price that designates them as student. First is durability.
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The second thing is tone production. The reason most advanced players don't like student trumpets is the restricted blow. The comments of 'stuffy' get put out there a lot. The stuffiness is intentional, as a beginner hasn't developed the skill to marshal their air efficiently, and need the help of a bit more resistance.
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Both of these are valid concerns although I think we sometimes underestimate the wind power that an eight or nine year old can muster. If that is an issue, the choice of mouthpiece may help.
As for durability, most parents know their kids well, including whether they can take care of any horn, student model or otherwise. If the kid is responsible, having a better trumpet and understanding that they are being entrusted with a nice horn may lead to even greater care than if they are given a student horn just like the other seven, eight, or twelve students use. In my son's case, he is just starting his second year of piano and will start trumpet lessons in the spring or summer after the Little League baseball season. I have three horns that he can use: a 1980s Strad, a Yamaha 6345, or a Yamaha 6335. I don't have any issues with having him start on one of these. _________________ "Mary, is the twelfth George Washington's birthday or is it mine?"
A. Lincoln
Snapper
Troy Bilt
Poulan |
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GenoValet Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 1244
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:27 am Post subject: |
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veery715 wrote: | Don't take this the wrong way, but you should check your spelling - you spelled "hear" correctly once and incorrectly once. And your subject title refers to FIVE but in your text you write TEN.
If you want folks to take your blog offering seriously, you might consider double checking spelling and facts. In the blog your write YTR's but plural words don't have an apostrophe, and you refer to the King Superior company, but the company is King, and the Superior is a model designation.
Best get someone to proofread for you.
My list of top 5 student horns, in no particular order: ....
veery |
Jest a tern minuet. Police donut pre-zoom too speech forest tall. Foursome hits ear elephant; veer hear too add vice, not tubby neat peaking. Shave hit 4 PMs. Tank yew.
Trumpet_King: I agree with Maarten van, and add the Doc Severinsen model Getzen Eterna to the used horns list. Easy to play, great intonation & a bright timbre that most young students appreciate. For the parent's pocketbook, they are well under $1000 and should gain value if cared for properly. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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veery715 wrote: | Don't take this the wrong way, but you should check your spelling - you spelled "hear" correctly once and incorrectly once. And your subject title refers to FIVE but in your text you write TEN.
If you want folks to take your blog offering seriously, you might consider double checking spelling and facts. In the blog your write YTR's but plural words don't have an apostrophe, and you refer to the King Superior company, but the company is King, and the Superior is a model designation.
Best get someone to proofread for you.
My list of top 5 student horns, in no particular order:
Olds Ambassador - rock solid, good valves
Ok... School marm.... can I use a slang... or are you going to slap my wrist for that too. Just answer the question and shut up. Your not impressing anybody with your all knowing knowledge. And by the way... I have an iq of 145.... drunk.... top that bozo.
So sorry I missed spelled a word because I'm writing faster than you can think! Get a life .... you give brass players a bad name.
Conn Director - generally the same
Getzen 300 - almost intermediate
Bach TR200 - Bach type sound in a student horn
Yamaha 23Xx - ubiquitous and serviceable
veery |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:54 pm Post subject: Sorry I type faster than you think- your a wannabe loser |
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veery715 wrote: | Don't take this the wrong way, but you should check your spelling - you spelled "hear" correctly once and incorrectly once. And your subject title refers to FIVE but in your text you write TEN.
If you want folks to take your blog offering seriously, you might consider double checking spelling and facts. In the blog your write YTR's but plural words don't have an apostrophe, and you refer to the King Superior company, but the company is King, and the Superior is a model designation.
Best get someone to proofread for you.
My list of top 5 student horns, in no particular order:
Olds Ambassador - rock solid, good valves
Conn Director - generally the same
Getzen 300 - almost intermediate
Bach TR200 - Bach type sound in a student horn
Yamaha 23Xx - ubiquitous and serviceable
veery |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: your list in no particular order.. you must concentrate.. |
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veery715 wrote: | Don't take this the wrong way, but you should check your spelling - you spelled "hear" correctly once and incorrectly once. And your subject title refers to FIVE but in your text you write TEN.
If you want folks to take your blog offering seriously, you might consider double checking spelling and facts. In the blog your write YTR's but plural words don't have an apostrophe, and you refer to the King Superior company, but the company is King, and the Superior is a model designation.
Best get someone to proofread for you.
My list of top 5 student horns, in no particular order:
Olds Ambassador - rock solid, good valves
Conn Director - generally the same
Getzen 300 - almost intermediate
Bach TR200 - Bach type sound in a student horn
Yamaha 23Xx - ubiquitous and serviceable
veery |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: Sold a Kanstul 609 the other day... it was Olds tough! Thx |
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Don Herman rev2 wrote: | New: Kanstul or Getzen student models, followed by Yamaha, then Bach (all I have tried)
Old: Ambassador, Conn Director, King |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:10 pm Post subject: I have little hands on use with the Getzens! Thx capt! |
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Capt.Kirk wrote: | Currently Available new models:
Getzen 390,490,Capri,700
Yamaha 2335,4335,6335,6345
Kanstul 600,700,900,103
Jupiter 600,606,1200 |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: I've had all three series of yamaha 2's. Solid post.Thx Finn |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | Nice blog!
You mention the Yamaha student model trumpet in your blog. I started out on the cornet version of this, and it was a nice horn.
The Yamaha 232 was made from 1969 (way earlier than one would think) until 1983. I believe that Yamaha went to mostly 4 digit models (at least for trumpets and cornets) at this time. Many of the pro models prior to this had numbers like 737 and 738 (for example).
It was succeeded by the Yamaha 2320 which was made from 1984-1997.
This was followed by the current Yamaha 2335.
I haven't played the various models, they're probably pretty similar. I think the Yamaha's play a little nicer than some other current student models, but are a little more delicate in construction. The valves are prone to more issues, and the leadpipes are slightly more prone to red-rot. Still, nice horns, and very consistent.
The student cornets were the 231 (until 1983) which was succeeded by the 2310. That model number is still in use (currently it's the 2310 II), and the 2330 is a shepard's crook version - which is pretty sweet.
The Yamaha 6335 and 6345 are pro-model instruments that are still in production today (I play one myself). |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: I"d like to try one... someday. Thx much! |
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TrentAustin wrote: | The Eastman 420G is a tremendous entry-level instrument. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: Crazy Finn, good list. I'll try to test one of the Accents |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | Right - I forgot what the question was - best student models of all time. I wish I knew more about ones like the Conn Directors (never had one) or the good Bueschers. Unfortunately, I don't.
I do, however, teach beginner band - and have done so for about a decade. I've seen plenty of student trumpets over those years, though most are the new models rather than vintage. I'm not sure what this list is, but I'll give thoughts on the ones I've seen.
Olds Ambassador - everything has already been said, I think. Great horn for anyone. I've used mine in concerts, though I bought it for pep band.
Yamaha Student Trumpets (YTR 2335)- nice playing trumpet. Not as tough and durable as the Olds (though, what is?) or even some other current ones, but plays nicely.
Bach Student Trumpet (TR300, I believe) - It does get a Bach-like sound. Unfortunately it's marred by inconsistent construction. One trumpet will work great, the next will have serious valve issues right out of the plastic wrap. Valve issues, as in the valves aren't properly fitted to the casing. Often the blow can be just a little tight.
Getzen Student Trumpet (300, 400, 390, etc) - much like the Yamaha in blow and weight (both are lighter than the Bach). I think it's sound isn't quite as nice and round as the Yamaha, but they have valves which are superior (not surprisingly).
"Accent" Student Trumpet (offered by Eckroth Music stores in MN and Midwest) - these are made in Germany in the B&S factory. They're pretty good trumpets. The valves have issues in some specimens. I think they're tougher than the Yamaha and better made than the Bach. They get a pretty nice sound. An all around decent horn.
Kanstul Student Trumpet (Kanstul 700, Besson 609) - Possibly the best current production student trumpet. Good valves, great construction, and nice sound. Unfortunately, it's the least seen one out of the one's listed.
King Student Trumpet (UMI production, Conn is probably the same) - very similar to the Bach (this was before they were the same company), decent sound, but marred by inconsistent construction and finish. Good ones are pretty good, poorly made ones aren't too rare and a pain.
Like I said - this isn't really a list of my favorite student models of all time (don't know enough, sadly) just comments on student models I've seen.
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I've been working on a trumpet primer myself over the years, which I've given out to parents who wonder about companies and models. It's more about what trumpet to get after the student model - but it's got some stuff on student horns. I've never published it on the web and haven't worked on it for a few years, though. Good to see you're putting something out there. Don't worry, I won't borrow any of your material.
For fun, I'll make a list of cool trumpets that some of my students have had over the years...
- LA Benge 3*
- Olds Super
- LA Olds Ambassador
- Reynolds Emperor
- Olds Recording Cornet
Way cooler than most of my horns. Or any of my horns. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject: I didn't invite the student trumpet. We are just commenting. |
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VetPsychWars wrote: | Crazy Finn wrote: | Right - I forgot what the question was - best student models of all time. |
What I'm curious about... there was a time when there were no "student models". I have a Buescher catalog from 1939ish and it has prices. The top-of-the-line "The 400" was $130.00 in lacquer ($1900 today) and the entry-level "Aristocrat" in lacquer was $95.00 ($1400 today). The mid-priced horn, the "Custom Built" was $115.00 (clearly about $1700 today).
Looking at the Aristocrat, no one in his right mind would call that a "student horn". Was it built to a price point? Sure. Was it specifically designed for "easy for kids to learn on?" HELL NO... except... my niece is playing that same Aristocrat and after only a few months her tone is stellar.
I learned to play on "The 400".
I am not exactly putting forth any position but I question the value of horns built specifically for students. It seems like a load of crap. Why aren't you putting the best horn you can afford into your student's hands so they can learn from day one to play a professional horn instead of screwing around "moving up"? Now we all know that kids are clumsy and they break everything they touch, so perhaps you're not giving your daughter a (yanking a name out my butt) Wild Thing. But there are plenty of used pro horns and plenty of opportunities to educate.
Student horn? Why bother?
Tom |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject: Thx plp, good list there..the english Bessons made it.. ok |
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plp wrote: | My #1 these days are the Kanstul 709/ Besson 609, essentially the same trumpet in most respects. Some of the Bessons don't have the socks on the water keys, and I believe some of the earlier Bessons didn't have the nickel main tuning slide receiver on the leadpipe.
This is not just a good student trumpet, but would do well through high school.
#2 Ambassador.
#3 Yamaha 2XX or 2XXX series. Very well built nice playing trumpets, never had a problem selling one.
#3B (tie) Getzen 300, 390, 490. Once again, a very well built trumpet with excellent valves, by and large. I've had two with valve problems, but even Getzen valves can't overcome a bent 2nd valve slide. The 300 series are again great re-sellers, perhaps because the lacquer seems to hold up very well, at least on the <15 year old horns.
#5 English Besson 2-20. While the lacquer does not stand the test of time, some of these get a really mature sound, almost Bachish. The Edgeware valves are pro quality if so equipt. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: It's always best to learn all the best. Not practical though |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | VetPsychWars wrote: | What I'm curious about... there was a time when there were no "student models"...
I am not exactly putting forth any position but I question the value of horns built specifically for students. It seems like a load of crap. Why aren't you putting the best horn you can afford into your student's hands so they can learn from day one to play a professional horn instead of screwing around "moving up"? |
You know, that's a great question. I've got some thoughts on it, but I don't have an "answer." Now, I'm only speculating, so I could be completely wrong but...
I bet the modern student horn phenomenon came about when assembly line manufacturing and a degree of automation become possible or the norm in brass manufacturing.
In the past the thing that was the primary expense in making trumpets was the hours of labor that skilled workers would have to do to build a trumpet. Of course, in many shops, and for some models it still is. Let's say it took "x" hours for a skilled craftsman to build a trumpet - normal fairly good model trumpet. Back when most of the building, manufacturing, and assembly of the horn was done by hand, building a less sophisticated trumpet - a "lower" model that could be sold at a lower price point still took almost "x" hours to build, perhaps "x-2." Once machining things like valve blocks, bells, and valves got more automated and required less labor time to create, you could create the parts for a trumpet in - let's say - 50% of "x" (or x/2). It wasn't a superbly finished trumpet, not handmade to high standards of other "pro" models, but it was pretty alright. It also cost a lot less to make. What to do with it?: behold, the "student" model trumpet was born.
I would imagine that the rise of the affordable trumpet coincided with the rise of the public school band program. It probably happened in the late '40's and '50's. The first such instruments I can think of are the Conn Director and the aforementioned Ambassador. I think, before that, most trumpets were simply professional models, simply sold at a few different price points. Of course, the Ambassador was for a while, nearly equal in quality to the other Olds models.
It's an excellent question - and I don't really have the answer. I am curious now, though. Maybe others can help. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: The top five pro horn blog will be next. thx |
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Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | The best student horn is a used pro horn.
Yeah I know, it's not the opinion you were looking for.
MvW. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: I love the sound of a good student horn.. they're unique.Thx |
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Wes Clarke wrote: | Maarten is right. A good used pro horn is worth the investment. Maybe not for all, but for most it will prove worthwhile. Consider the kid who starts at 8 or 9 years of age. He or she might play for 5 or 6 years on their first horn. That means 260 weeks or more. Even if you spend $1,000, that's less than 4 bucks a week. What are you spending for lessons? If you consider resale value, the calculus is even more in favor of the better horn.
We don't often look at things this way, but in some cases, we should. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: Your absolutely right! Thx |
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Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | Wes Clarke wrote: | ...A good used pro horn is worth the investment...Even if you spend $1,000, that's less than 4 bucks a week... |
Yes, and like you shortly mentioned too, if we're only talking about the investment it gets even better than that.
Let us say that after 5 years the child decides to stop, or he/she wants to up-grade to a new pro-level trumpet.
-A shiny Chinese made starters trumpet: $200-300. Market value after 5 years of use (if the instrument survives that long): NOTHING. Parent lost those $200-300.
-New student tpt of $800. Re-sale value after 5 years: $400 maximum. Parent lost $400.
-A maybe not so shiny, used pro-tpt: roughly $800-1200. Value 5 years later: most likely still $800-1200. Parent didn't spend a single $ and the child used a high quality instrument.
Problem is that most parents prefer to go for "shiny and new" rather than for something that actually plays well and keeps its value over the years.....
MvW. |
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Trumpet_King Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2010 Posts: 20
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject: Nice quote.... Capt Kirk! |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | Capt.Kirk wrote: | True the YTR 6335 and 63345 are considered Pro models but often one can find them new and used for around the same price just a few hundred more then the student models new. |
That's true Kirk, they are an affordable horn. A used 6335 is less than a new 2335. Crazy, but true. They both have the Yamaha delicate build that Maarten talked about - I know about this first hand. However, they are one of the best value trumpets Yamaha makes right now. |
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Gene Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 302 Location: S.C.
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Where would the Conn Director or Constellations with the copper colored bell from the mid fifties fit in to the student rankings???
Gene |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think Connstellations were considered "student" horns nor priced that way.
I don't know enough about Conns to comment meaningfully on the Directors. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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