GR Beta Testing Results

B. Scriver · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:16 am Post subject:

Hack,
Don't feel bad that you liked your present mouthpiece better. The Beta Testing is not about you testing these 3 GR's against yours. It was about testing the three different GR rim contours.

I have no clue what your mouthpiece parameters are and if I were to see you for a consultation, there is a chance that the three GR test pieces may have not been in the running for long as a match to you and your horn. There are others that you would most likely enjoy much better anyhow, and that would also pass the playing tests. Remember that there are hundreds of GR standard designs, and thousands on file.

So, perhaps your present piece is a better match to you and your horn than the three test pieces, but I bet if I saw you in person, I would find even a more perfect match from our standard line.

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com

Shelbywmccarty · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject:

I have continued to play each mouthpiece for about a total of three hours today. I am blown away by the red. It plays everything better than my setup. I had also been experimenting with a najoom custon 5c/ms and the red out plays it as well. The Rims don't feel that different to me right away. After i play a few notes...i know immediately which is which by now. The blue does seem to be smaller somehow, the responce I replayed all of the tests. I changed the order that i played them in and didn't look at the pieces. what do you know..the red won it. It is very comfortable and does much more than my old stuff. Octave slurs from low C to middle then up to high is much easier. Tounging the individual octaves is very clean and accurate. I tried it on both of my other pieces and they were very inconsistant and i chipped a lot of notes. I am amazed by this set of tests. I have played them in the upper resister loud and soft...i have played them quitely low and loud low...and all over the middle. The accuracy of the red with me and my horn is amazing. I will get to play it on a gig tomorrow and sunday and i can't wait. Thanks Gary and Brian!
_________________
Shelby McCarty

B. Scriver · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject:

This testing process is about learning and everyone has given great impute and done a remarkable job. Everybody is learning from the process and each other. This testing provides no right or wrong answers, just what is the best match for you and your equipment.

Hack, we appreciate your observations and you won't be the only person to find these mouthpieces not matched to you or your trumpet. Knowing and understanding what Hack is talking about helps trumpet players communicate better.

Understand the type of equipment Hack plays, he is probably geared towards orchestral work and equipment. We apologize if this is not the case. From looking at the results Hack appears to be a strong player using a larger (23) throat bore and C trumpet. The feeling of stiffness makes sense. We sent out 3 different rims on the GR M cup and #2BB. While this is a very popular and versatile design it is not the 1st choice for a C trumpet. We do have top orchestral player using the M cup with the #2 and #3bb's, they are few. Given the same 3 Beta test rims on a CX, C**, C2.4 or MX cup and the match would have been closer to what Hack is playing. The CX - C 2.4, has larger throat bores and backbores, the C** - MX have the #3BB, and the only way to determine this is to do the testing with other mpcs.

Another think to note is alpha angle and bite. The M has a medium alpha. Hack is probably use to a lower alpha with a good bite and putting a little more lip in the cup or having the lips engage in a way that requires this set of parameters. The M cup didn't match the required parameters for his playing and physical needs. This statement from the test gives us some clues.

"8. Playing Test #5, Grandioso, loud to soft.
X – R – B - Y
In regards to sound, none of the GR rims felt too comfortable all the way through; I always felt as though the “f” levels had too much buzz, whereas I felt I could control the sound more with my mp. The “p” levels were very clear with the GR pieces. "

If the "f" levels felt a "buzz" the lips were probably impinged by the alpha angle being a little too high or too much acoustical feedback. On th "p" levels the lip usually doesn't engage as far and the alpha didn't become as much as an issue. The alpha must be tuned for you, we make them from 7 to 38 degrees and most being from 10 to 20 degrees. An alpha that is too high also give many of the descriptions Hack mentioned, "The GRs were significantly brighter and edgier than mine:", "The GR’s felt very rigid and did not allow much smoothness in the way of feeling or sound. ", and "Again, I had a hard time thinking musically and making this sound easy with those rims as they were very insistent on where I should place the notes!". These statements are common with too much alpha, acoustical feedback or lip impingement. We are just guessing from the results. A consult would allow us to dial in very quickly. So Hack, if you ever go for a consult or to try GR mpcs with your Edwards C, look at the 66C, 66C**, 66C 2.4, 66LC 2.4 (special made for Dr. Ewald), 66VC, 66CX, 66Q*C, 66CT, if you play the 66 diameter rim. Other options would be the 66.6M2*, 66.8 C2.4 or the L66.9 series.

Thanks for doing the tests on the C trumpet and providing quality feedback.

GR
www.grmouthpieces.com

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6177

Brian,

The poll allows voting for anyone registered at TH, even those who did not audit the mouthpieces!

B. Scriver · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject:

True. I guess anyone can make a poll submission but I am hoping that would not be the case. How trusting a person I am. Crazy but trusting. We would not market red, blue, etc. even though that would be quite interesting. Bri

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com

Yamahaguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992

miles71 · Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject:

It is really nice to see all the posters having such a great approach to this test. I know I really tried to compare the pieces on just the rim and its effect on my playing. I agree with Brad W. totally and his feeling on why he plays GR's. I dont have them in my horn because someone said they where the best thing, I have them because they work best for me, and they also work best for many of my students.

Cant wait for the final "reveal". Next time you do this we should all submit recordings of a test piece and see if what we are hearing is what everyone else hears.

TD

romajore · Regular Member Joined: 17 Nov 2001 Posts: 78

I am an amateur player– Brass Quintet, solos and ensembles in Church, Community band. Play a Schilke B1 with a GR 66m standard rim, symphonic blank, #3 BB and sometimes, the standard 66m. I play tested both along with the beta pieces.

4. Playing test #1, breath attack on middle G.
B,X,R,Y
5. Playing test #2, articulation 16th’s -dotted 1/8th 16th.
X,R,B,Y
6. Playing test #3, low soft slurs.
R,X,Y,B
7. Playing test #4, intervals, articulation, intonation, and accuracy.
X,R,B,Y
8. Playing Test #5, Grandioso, loud to soft.
X,Y,B,R
9. Which rim felt the best?
X,B,R,Y – though I did not consider any of them uncomfortable
10. Which rim performed the best?
X, followed by B & R (tie), then Y
11. Which rim felt the biggest?
Y
12. Which rim felt the smallest?
R

Comments pertaining to the three beta pieces
• All the mouthpieces play with the efficiency I appreciate in GR mouthpieces. Each rim seemed to help me do a certain thing better. For example, with the yellow rim, my least favorite overall, I had the cleanest articulation.
• Intonation – good on all, but the yellow rim required more effort for me to be smack on center
• Range – Red rim made upper register easier. Yellow made upper range harder, Blue was best overall upper to lower register.
• Tone – behind the horn the red rim sounded “brighter” to me. Yellow the darkest, but I know this can be different from the in front of the horn. Unfortunately, no one was available to listen and provide feedback.
• Overall - Of the beta rims, the blue and red performed better for me than the yellow. I had a slight preference for the blue overall, but it was pretty much a toss-up. One might think from the scoring of the exercises the red would be the winner, but playing phrases from various music I’m familiar with, I kept gravitating to the blue as favorite. The yellow rim made me work harder to get the same result and I lost some upper range.
• All these mouthpieces felt “familiar” Like I had played something similar before back when I was on the safari or maybe another GR rim (Q, E, G, 3, HC, Butcher) It will be interesting to see what the parameters are.

Thanks Brian and Gary for the opportunity to try out the pieces. I think you would probably find players for all of them in the marketplace.

wilcox96 · Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 10:19 am Post subject:

Man, this was another great post to read. (romajore). Amazing to me to read how each of us has reacted to the mpcs. You describing the Yellow as being the darkest. wow. Again...no right or wrong answers!!! Just how each of us has reacted to these pcs.

This all will mean something to Gary and Brian. It just befuddles me. ha. But...that's why I don't make mpcs.

The cool thing is, Gary and Brian will know (from the comments) what to tweak and which direction to go if any of us wanted to explore further. (mpc purchase). Just like Brian's suggestions, in regards to Hack.

Anyway...I'm gettng a kick out of reading this stuff as well.
_________________
Brad Wilcox
https://www.bandmix.com/wilcox96/

Yamahaguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992

B. Scriver · Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:41 am Post subject:

A recording would be great! Perhaps a video for You Tube? It would be fantastic if we could video all participants so we can all see the testing and compare for ourselves! Bri

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com

ScottA · Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject:

I have completed my trial and passed the set of 65's on to the next tester. A fun experiment to say the least. As a GR consultant I usually am on the other end of the testing so it was interesting to be the subject as well this time. I did not have any insight from Bri or GR as to the actual pieces being tested.

I did e-mail them when I was done saying that I actually had two different results. If I stuck strictly to the instructions provided I would have choosen the yellow rim. It felt the biggest to me but also had the highest overall score. But....I felt the test was a bit too heavy on the articulations with only one test for sluring and flexibility and that being strictly in the low register at a very soft volume. My over all choice, the yellow, actually scored the lowest of the three on that test.

If I added in one or two more slur/flexibility tests as I would when doing a GR consult I would have chosen the red rim as it worked much better in those situations and was a very close runner-up in the other tests. The yellow and red were just a couple of points apart by my scoring system so I could easily live with either one. The blue was a bit further back. I found attacks a bit harsh and the piece felt a bit small to me. Obviously all three mouthpieces were finished to perfection.

I assume that most of you who have taken the beta test probably played the rims in a real world situation as well as the controlled GR playing tests. Did you find different results if you did so? Just curious!

BTW-We have about 100 models in stock at The Horn Section. Anyone interested in a consult and a shot at (almost) the whole GR line come and see us! We are only about an hour from Disneyworld if you are planning that summer family getaway!
_________________
Scott Apelgren
Indialantic, FL

JoeCool · Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject:

Is it too late to get in on the testing? I'm on a GRe65M-MS.
_________________
Joe

bkonstans1 · Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject:

Its not too late. E-mail Brian and he'll get you set up
_________________
Bennett Konstans
University of Illinois, Chicago Brass Band, Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps

Bach Strad Bb, Yamaha Xeno C, Yamaha Cornet, Couesnon Flugelhorn. GR Mouthpieces

Yamahaguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992

Hello all...just shipped off the pieces to our next contestant-
Here's what I thought:
I am one of the few who preferred the Yellow rim. I did my testing on
a large bore Xeno and custom Greg Black mouthpiece.
Like Charlie, I found the Yellow to be extremely similar to what I am playing
now. So I was not surprised to lean towards that one immediately. The results are as follows:

4. Playing test #1, breath attack on middle G. X, Y, R, B
5. Playing test #2, articulation 16th’s -dotted 1/8th 16th. Y, X, R, B
6. Playing test #3, low soft slurs. Y, X, R, B
7. Playing test #4, intervals, articulation, intonation, and accuracy. X, Y, R, B
8. Playing Test #5, Grandioso, loud to soft. X, Y, R, B
9. Which rim felt the best? Yellow
10. Which rim performed the best? Yellow
11. Which rim felt the biggest? Yellow
12. Which rim felt the smallest? Red

Comments-
In addition to the given guidelines I added 3 tests which I'd like to share.
Mouthpiece buzzing, extreme high register exercises, and endurance routines.
Because I didn't feel comfortable (or familiar) with the Red & Blue rims, they obviously didn't
perform as well. I felt as if I had to manipulate my chops to get the desired result.
Because of this- range, tone, articulation, and tuning were way off.
Yellow outperformed my piece on the low soft slurs (felt a bit more open)
and the 8th/16th exercise (spoke a hair quicker).
Everything else (including the added 3 tests) were won by my piece. After Yellow,
was the Red and the Blue in last.

I also have a guess on what rims they might be, going only by the descriptions I read on the GR site.
Having only played their standard rim, I'm really not familiar with them at all. But I'll give it a shot later.

Anyway, I recorded a small clip with each but I gotta go teach now. Get
back to you later. Thanks again, had alot of fun!
And if you're looking for someone to take the Yellow off your hands, I'm sure I'd learn to live with it!

Best regards,
-Dennis

SeanE · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:21 am Post subject:

I got my 65 beta test kit a few days ago now.. and I have not had the chance to do the complete testing. but first impression is that I Really feel more comfortable on the RED than the others. I find the red rim more comfortable than my Shew 1 mpc. Although, I am no where near used to this depth of a mpc. is this compared to a normal C cup? I really like the feel of the red rim. I am wondering how close to the normal rim for GR is the Red rim? I'll being doing the actual suggested testing over the next few days and post results.
_________________
Just playin music...

PH · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:33 am Post subject:

There is no such thing as a "normal" or standard GR rim. There are myriad possibilities in the GR line.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com

SeanE · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject:

the reason why I thought there was a standard is b.c on the website is just says standard GR parameters then custom below it.. so I thought there was a standard such like bach does per diameter. if there are endless possiblities with the same price tag. how does one chose a mpc from GR without spending a month in the office w/ them?
_________________
Just playin music...

wilcox96 · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject:

Pat's point is mostly valid, since - although there is a Standard rim, it is in name only.

As for how to figure this stuff out... well, that's why a session with a GR consultant (especially one with a variety of rims/cups/etc combos available) is extremely helpful. I've had pretty good success with back and forth conversations with Brian. However, this is a testament to knowing what I'm after - and the ability to communicate that... as well as the intimate knowledge of the GR line (and trumpet playing!!) from Brian. Without trying it though...it is still educated guesses.

There is no better test than on the gig and TIME working with a new mpc. It is certainly possible to make some decisions on mpc components - then take it on the gig - and it not work. Working with a consultant vastly reduces those chances.
_________________
Brad Wilcox
https://www.bandmix.com/wilcox96/

PH · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject:

Amen. In my opinion the only sure fire way to get the best GR mouthpiece for you is to spend an hour one on one with a GR consultant like Alex or Bri. In the long run that is a lot cheaper than collecting a lot of mouthpiece shaped paperweights!

_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com