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jkarnes0661 Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 258 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: American in Paris Mute |
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OK, one more American in Paris question. I just finished a search for this in the forums and didn't really find the answer.
What does everyone use for the felt crown mute? I've been using a Crown Royal bag but I'm not really satisfied with the results. I don't think the felt is thick enought to make a significant difference in the sound, though in the hall it might be more significant than in my house. I also feel like it seals too tight around the bell because the resistance in my horn skyrockets (at least it feels that way).
I'm thinking of getting another bag, placing one inside the other, loosening the stitching on both bags, and making a hole to allow more air to flow through. (I also relish the thought of Crown Royal on the rocks for the next few weeks!)
Just curious about what you all use and what you think of my idea. _________________ Jonathan Karnes
Grand Rapids, MI
jonathankarnes.com |
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darinkelly Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 106 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Find your nearest Salvation Army or Purple Heart or Goodwill thrift shop, and look for a felt fedora. You don't want a hat that's been tanned or stiffened or made from animal pelt (like a cowboy hat, for instance). Felt hats tend to be about 1/8" thick and pretty "squishy".
Next, get yourself a nice sharp utility knife and cut the whole dang brim off, so all you have left is the top of the hat (the "crown"). Last, cut a few 4-inch horizontal slits centered in the crown, starting about an inch or so from an edge, and spaced an inch or so apart.
You can experiment with which of the slits you will place over the bead of your bell, i.e., how much of the bell you will cover. Sometimes leaving the bell partially uncovered will avoid too stuffy a sound. The other slits will help the pitch from changing too much, although if you find that you go too sharp, you might want to either cut a few more slits or even use a hole punch to perforate the bottom of the crown.
This is a sound you can't get from a Crown Royal bag or velvet drape, so definitely go through the hassle... it's worth the payoff.
Good Luck!
DK |
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MrClean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 2734 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
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darinkelly wrote: | Find your nearest Salvation Army or Purple Heart or Goodwill thrift shop, and look for a felt fedora.
DK |
Not to be confused with a felt beret - the beret is quite a bit thicker and not the right sound (I use one of those for the posthorn solo). |
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ProAm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 950
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: |
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darinkelly wrote: | Find your nearest Salvation Army ... look for a felt fedora ... get yourself a nice sharp utility knife ... cut a few more slits or even use a hole punch to perforate the bottom of the crown ... it's worth the payoff. |
I'd love to see a photo of the finished product and how it looks in use. _________________ "What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left." |
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jkarnes0661 Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 258 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'll second that. I can't quite picture how the bell is fitting through these slits. _________________ Jonathan Karnes
Grand Rapids, MI
jonathankarnes.com |
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Bach 3c New Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2004 Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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The "mute" made from a felt hat is called a "Gershwin hat," and there are instructions for making one, along with photos, in The Trumpeter's Handbook, by Roger Sherman. A Gershwin hat should be used for the solos in the second movement of the Concerto in F, and the opening solo in Porgy and Bess Symphonic Synthesis, by Robert Russell Bennett. The "mute with felt crown" called for in American in Paris should be ignored; play the solo open. This is a tradition dating back to the time when Gershwin was still alive. If you listen to some older recordings, you will hear it played open.
Stephen Chenette |
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trumpetdon Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2003 Posts: 361
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting to this list Mr. Chenette.
I played the solo open last time I did it, I am used to hearing it that way on recordings. I had prepared a felt crown and brought it with me to rehearsals. The conductor didn't say anything, and either did I!
Don
Last edited by trumpetdon on Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jkarnes0661 Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 258 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your replies. I must say I'm relieved to hear that the solo should be played without any mute. It makes much more sense to me that way and now I know why when using the mute I could never sound like any of the recordings I've heard. Cheers.
-Jon _________________ Jonathan Karnes
Grand Rapids, MI
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MrClean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 2734 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
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jkarnes0661 wrote: | Thank you all for your replies. I must say I'm relieved to hear that the solo should be played without any mute. It makes much more sense to me that way and now I know why when using the mute I could never sound like any of the recordings I've heard. Cheers.
-Jon |
Well, now hang on a second. If I were you, I would be prepared to play it both ways. Personally, I have not played it or heard it (live) open, though I think I have heard a recording where it is played open. You need to be ready to do it as asked and not base your argument on what you read here (no offense, Steve - my opinion is just as "invalid" as yours ).
Jim |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5213 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Even if I could lay my hands on a notarized declaration from George Gershwin himself saying, "Play the solo in American in Paris open!" I would never go to a rehearsal of the piece without some kind of hat/bag/contraption, and I probably wouldn't take a chance playing it open at an audition either. Right or wrong, virtually everybody expects to hear that solo played with some kind of felt-like bell obstruction, and it does say so right on the part. One of my favourite rules for musicians: "Never be the only one who's right."
For what it's worth, I use a felt beret, although I've never tried the fedora approach -- I might have to try that. Mind you, the beret is easier to pack! _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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amuller Regular Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 99 Location: DC
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Agreed!! Twofold.
It has been said over and over again, always be prepared with the right tools for the job, and always play the ink. A conductor will ask you to do it open, but shouldn't HAVE to ask you to find your felt crown
And unless you are absolutely sure that you are unfireable, don't argue with the conductor. It never ends well.
Mr. Clean and NonsenseEliminator, have you ever used the crown royal bag, or do you feel it is too thin to make the porper effect?
A |
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MrClean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 2734 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Mr. Clean and NonsenseEliminator, have you ever used the crown royal bag, or do you feel it is too thin to make the porper effect? |
Too thin for my taste, especially if you're aiming for the "porper effect" . I'll try to remember to post a photo of my "hat" in action.
J
p.s. I've looked all over the net for the term "porper effect" but can't find it... |
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trumpetmike Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003 Posts: 11315 Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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I have heard of the pauper effect - that is common to many musicians
As for the solo - I have used a mute bag before now (thanks Trumcor ) and the conductor really liked it.
Not sure I have ever heard it open, but it is certainly an interesting piece of historical information - thanks Mr Chenette. |
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amuller Regular Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 99 Location: DC
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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The "porper effect" is when a conductor looks at you, smiles and then never says anything critical about your playing ever again. In fact, he/she begins to follow you.
Thanks for the typo catch!! Mr. Clean really is the man.... |
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TrumpetJoel Veteran Member
Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 131 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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I used a Crown Royal bag with fantastic results. Here's the rub---there are different kinds, sizes, and thicknesses of CR bags! Luckily, my good friend Todd (disclaimer: NOT an alcoholic) had about 5 different bags for me to try out. I settled on one of the larger ones. The smaller ones were thinner, and yes, barely fit over the bell---ending up looking rather like, if you'll excuse the comparison, a purple felt prophylactic with a reservoir tip attached to the end of the horn. The larger one I settled on was in my opinion just the right thickness, did not completely shut off the air circulation around the bell, and helped give me what I perceive as the optimum tone for this solo.
Having said that, there are MANY ideas of the optimum tone that I've heard---it all depends on what picture you decide to paint! I've heard many ideas about how to play the solo---anything from trying to take the audience's clothes off, to performing a striptease, to conveying longing, to stumbling drunkenly across the Paris cobblestones in the wee morning hours, to just a proclamation of how much the American in Paris loves the city itself! Decide what picture to paint, then decide on your sound concept, then use any method found in this thread or elsewhere to come up with the best way to do it. It's absolutely one of my favorite solos, and as with many solos, there's probably about a hundred right ways to play it.
Joel _________________ Principal Trumpet, United States Coast Guard Band
Co-President/Supreme Chancellor of Lubrication, Monster Oil LLC
www.monsteroil.net |
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jkarnes0661 Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 258 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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I certainly wouldn't dream of showing up for the rehearsal without a few options on hand. I'll be asking the conductor what he would like to see and if he wants to hear a few options before making a decision.
I have the smaller thinner bag (and the prophalactic metaphor is pretty spot on ) so I think I may try my double bag idea as well as looking up something a little heaftier. Rehearsal is Tuesday night so I've got a few hours left. _________________ Jonathan Karnes
Grand Rapids, MI
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8962 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: |
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I have an Altman mute bag I use for these sorts of things. Thicker than the old Crown Royal, not as dense as my head, err, "hat", and has a drawstring so it doesn't fall off the horn.
The main effect is to take the edge off the sound -- it doesn't deaden all that much, and the difference (to me) is mostly in the hall, not from behind the bell. A little less bright, a little more diffuse, to the audience.
fwiwfm - Don _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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ProAm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 950
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Is this a good example of the felt crown mute? Seems like the slits are more like holes, but that could just be an illusion. I can see the side slit for hanging it on the bell.
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duaneking Regular Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 42 Location: Washington, DC
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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I heard the NY Phil play this last night on TV. It was from the N. Korea Tour. When the solo started it sounded open, but different. The camera was not on Mr. Smith at the time, but when it panned to him he had a bag on the bell (large, gold and untied). I'm not sure what type of bag it was though. To me, it was exactly what it should sound like. Go figure...
-Duane King |
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s11141827 New Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2023 Posts: 7 Location: Jacksonville Florida
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Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 7:40 am Post subject: |
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duaneking wrote: | I heard the NY Phil play this last night on TV. It was from the N. Korea Tour. When the solo started it sounded open, but different. The camera was not on Mr. Smith at the time, but when it panned to him he had a bag on the bell (large, gold and untied). I'm not sure what type of bag it was though. To me, it was exactly what it should sound like. Go figure...
-Duane King |
You can use a Bucket Mute instead. _________________ I play various instruments & Sing. |
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