PRANA thoughts

raptor · Regular Member Joined: 05 Feb 2002 Posts: 29

I ordered a new PRANA back in july when they first came out and after playing on it for a couple weeks I thought I'd share my thoughts about it. I'll start by saying that I've used a MF2 LT for a couple years now and so I ordered the PRANA in the same configuration.
Right off I noticed that I was indeed able to add a couple noted to my upper register. The sound to me isn't any different than my other MF2 however others have told me that it's a richer fuller sound. I guess it must start out away from the horn. The bore at the top near the cup is larger than the other MF2 and it does feel like it takes more air. This mouthpiece more than any I've played "pushes back" whenever I tense up at all. That doesn't happen all the time but there are times when I'm not as relaxed as I could be. At those times there's just no getting sound out of this. So I switch back to the other mouthpiece. The bottom line there is that these are not as forgiving as other Monette pieces. Dave Monette told me that the secret is to be careful to be aligned correctly. Also he said that it takes less effort to play these. That I have noticed. If I don't push as hard and put less air in the horn the mouthpiece responds very nicely. Would I recommend them.....yes but I would qualify that by adding you have to really be into the whole alignment/relaxed approach to playing. I've had it now for three weeks and have only used it exclusively in performance or practice once. I usually start off with it and after a few songs find that I'm more comfortable with the standard MF2. I guess I'm not as in tune to the relaxation approach yet myself.
_________________
Bruce

hpkhilma · Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:41 pm Post subject:

Interesting post. My Monette 61X C trumpet should be delivered very soon and I am told by Tom that it will come with a PRANA. I will be sure to share my thoughts on it after I put in some time with the mouthpiece.

comebackkid · Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:31 pm Post subject:

Thanks for sharing!!!

I have a few questions:

- what is the specific drill size (asuming you are able to measure it) of the lt, and the prana version of your mf2?

- is the shank isertion into the receiver the same distance?

- does it appear that the throat is longer on the prana?

- is the blank the same shape/dimensions?

Thanks again for sharing your perception of this new equipment. I am sure there are a lot of interested players.

BTW - has anyone else tried these pieces? If so, what are your observations?

Thank you to all.

Ed Gabriel

raptor · Regular Member Joined: 05 Feb 2002 Posts: 29

The PRANA looks identical with the exception of the bore. It's about a fourth larger from the looks of it. Everything else is the same.
_________________
Bruce

roblumba · Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 5:09 pm Post subject:

I also have a Monette trumpet on the way (AjnaII Bb) with a Prana mouthpiece. My current mouthpiece is a standard Monette. I'll post some feedback here when I get it and have played it a bit.

trptmaster · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 146

That info about the Prana sounds right to me from what I have heard. I had a friend who bought one of these pieces and was playing along on a gig when he had to reach down to his side with one hand while still playing and pick up a mute. To make a long story short because he was missalligned for that couple of seconds the mouthpiece just cut out on him. Nothing. No sound. No tone. Just air! Once he sat up straight and things got back to center the mothpiece responded again but it just goes to show that this mouthpiece has a mind of its own and is a fussy little fella. (Keep in mind he was accustomed to Monette equipment... He had played on STC-1 weight MPS for years) As a side note be sure that you do not become too relaxed while playing on this piece! This same friend had the Prana working like a well oiled machine one time. To make another long story short he got into the "zone" so to speak with this piece and became so relaxed that he fell off his seat while practicing. (good thing this wasn't a performance) This MP is not for everyone!

In Peace,

trptmaster

I ordered a new PRANA back in july when they first came out and after playing on it for a couple weeks I thought I'd share my thoughts about it. I'll start by saying that I've used a MF2 LT for a couple years now and so I ordered the PRANA in the same configuration.
Right off I noticed that I was indeed able to add a couple noted to my upper register. The sound to me isn't any different than my other MF2 however others have told me that it's a richer fuller sound. I guess it must start out away from the horn. The bore at the top near the cup is larger than the other MF2 and it does feel like it takes more air. This mouthpiece more than any I've played "pushes back" whenever I tense up at all. That doesn't happen all the time but there are times when I'm not as relaxed as I could be. At those times there's just no getting sound out of this. So I switch back to the other mouthpiece. The bottom line there is that these are not as forgiving as other Monette pieces. Dave Monette told me that the secret is to be careful to be aligned correctly. Also he said that it takes less effort to play these. That I have noticed. If I don't push as hard and put less air in the horn the mouthpiece responds very nicely. Would I recommend them.....yes but I would qualify that by adding you have to really be into the whole alignment/relaxed approach to playing. I've had it now for three weeks and have only used it exclusively in performance or practice once. I usually start off with it and after a few songs find that I'm more comfortable with the standard MF2. I guess I'm not as in tune to the relaxation approach yet myself.
_________________

saelee · Regular Member Joined: 03 Jan 2002 Posts: 34

I still don't get it, and I guess noone else does either, but how can a mouthpiece, assuming it is still cut the same way as other pieces, create such a different experience? If I would digitally replicate the mouthpiece, using the same dimensions, obviously not talking about different rim/cup sizes, then the only way the mouthpiece would play differently would be due to the material, right? Does Dave Monette have an in-house expert on Metallurgy?

I have played Monette Mouthpieces for years, always felt they were better than others (i.e. the sound I liked) but as I have been working on the teachings of Gordon SA and BE, it seems to make less of a difference than I had previously believed.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.

trptmaster · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 146

Dear saelee, You bring up some excellent points in your post and I must say that I have had many of your same questions and ideas myself. In this age of tecnology there is no question that a Monette Mouthpiece could be exactly duplicated. My question is if anyone were to do that would the duplicated mouthpieces have "the constant pitch center". In the past I have asked if anyone could take a Bach MEGA and cut that shank down to Monette size and drill it out with the exact dimensions of a Monette (Im afraid we couldn't use dads tool shed for that one. things would have to be very exact) If the MEGA was drilled out to exact monette specs I would have think that there would be a constant pitch center. (Now that I think about this I might take this idea to the debating forum) Im not sure if there is a metal man at the Monette shop however I do know how Mr. Monette got his idea for his mouthpieces from a cat. In a dream Mr. Monettes cat SHELDON came to him and gave him the specifics for the ideal mouthpiece with constant pitch. That is where we get the (STC) it stands for "Sheldon the Cat" Im not sure if the same cat gave Mr. Monette the idea for this new and superior PRANA. My guess would be that Sheldon has become wiser as time ticked by however I have to wonder if Sheldon is even in this world at this time. Maybe the cat has passed on? It is possible there is still some communication or maybe a new and superior cat came up with this piece. If anyone knows more about this please fill me in! IN the meantime I might be comming up with a new topic involving Monette pieces for the debating forum. Stay tunned

In Peace,

trptmaster

I still don't get it, and I guess noone else does either, but how can a mouthpiece, assuming it is still cut the same way as other pieces, create such a different experience? If I would digitally replicate the mouthpiece, using the same dimensions, obviously not talking about different rim/cup sizes, then the only way the mouthpiece would play differently would be due to the material, right? Does Dave Monette have an in-house expert on Metallurgy?

I have played Monette Mouthpieces for years, always felt they were better than others (i.e. the sound I liked) but as I have been working on the teachings of Gordon SA and BE, it seems to make less of a difference than I had previously believed.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.

roblumba · Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 11:22 am Post subject:

There is one other feature that can be changed by tooling metal. I am no expert, but I did graduate with an engineering degree and realize that metals characteristics change when it is placed under pressure such as what happens during cutting. An example is when you take a thin piece of metal, such as a paper clip, and bend it back and forth. It can actually generate a lot of heat at the point of bending. Eventually it will break. The metal changes. It's been a while since I took the class so I don't remember exact details and terminology. But a change occurs at the molecular bonds the hold the molecules together. Working on metal can change its' elasticity and hardness. Harder metals tend to be more brittle while softer metals tend to be more elastic. I would also imagine that these characteristics of the metal would interact with the sound waves that travel through the trumpet and mouthpiece.
David Monette considers the type of brass he uses in his instruments in order to effect sound characteristics. They use softer brass for the body of the trumpet. I don't know what choice they make for the moutpiece. Also consider that there are areas within the trumpet (mouthpiece?) that get hit harder by sound waves that are travelling through the instrument. Adjusting the hardness / elasticty of these areas may also have some effect on the sound. I believe I've heard the term "nodes" used to describe these areas that the sound waves tend to focus on.
So I would have to conclude that if hardness, elasticity effects sound, then simply digitizing and recreating the shape of the mouthpiece would not create an exact duplicate. You would also need to capture the landscape of hardness /elasticity for the body of metal that makes up the mouthpiece. It is possible to measure these characteristic of metal. But I imagine it can be very difficult to create a duplicate using these methods. Best thing to do would be to learn how they tooled the metal and duplicate their method.

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-08 13:24 ]

saelee · Regular Member Joined: 03 Jan 2002 Posts: 34

Quad C,

You hit it on the head, that is, how secret can this trade secret be when we are talking about a mouthpiece! Its not like replicating every stroke of the Mona Lisa painting or something. I know, it may be very difficult, especially if the metal is different, but my point is, I don't think anyone out there has really tried to replicate Monettes' work to the exact specifications (and I mean other than those cheesy heavy looking things), instead he just gets dismissed. Basically when it comes to Monette, you either love it or hate it.

Oh well, I'll just have to try a Prana myself!

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-07-13 15:57 ]

drunkiq · Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 6:25 pm Post subject:

Quad c -

If you replicated the mpc with brass 100% (in and out) and took off the plating on both, you could then weigh them and that would probably be a dead give away that the blend of material used is just not brass -eureka??!!! -

damn pain pills for my back - now that I think about it, we may be talking about a really small variance, which wont say much - I guess you could have a metallurgist take a look at the material...

ohh.. Who cares - if you like it then pay for it and don’t worry about the dissecting it…

_________________
-Marc
_____TTT_c_____/|
(___u-|||_o____) |
A Schilke Loyalist

[ This Message was edited by: drunkiq on 2002-10-06 00:57 ]

trptmaster · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 146

Dear drunkIQ, I hope the back is doing better my friend. What happened there little fella? Hope you get back to your normal drunk self soon! AS FOR THE PRANA. No one can ever tell me if these mouthpieces were to be exactly duplicated if the constant pitch center would still be there. I do not believe that the metal Mr. Monette uses or the way he treats it makes the pitch constant. It is my contention that this pitch center must be constant because of the superior physical dimensions of the mouthpiece and not because of the metal used or how it is treated. I know that the metal is soft on Monette equipment because he anneals (sp?) the crap out of everything.

In Peace,

trptmaster

drunkiq · Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2002 10:19 am Post subject:

trumpt master - I think you are right on the money that it is something in the metal mix - I remember I use to have an aluminum jet tone back in the days... it was super light and did make a difference -

I assume that you are also speaking about the metal being soft (gold is soft) because the mpc dents eaiser than normal?? that would diffently be a good hint that it is a metal blend rather than just raw brass - or mabye he does heat it different...

for instance - there is a mountain bike make by the name of Ritchy that figure out how to make a chromoly frame that is lighter than my aluminum composite (it is ceramic compound) frame on my specialized s-works bike has.. it all has to do with treating the metal correctly, which alloys him to use a thinner gauge without sacrificing durability - his bikes have the best of both worlds - the forgiving softness of the chromoly and the light weight of my super stiff frame...

that bike has been haning in my garage since it first messed up my back 4 years ago... I am scared to death of it, I use to love going up the trails and blazing down them... one day when my back is better and I drop this weight off that i gained from not moving around like i use to be able too, I am gonna get back on that thing - please be careful if you ride and dont fall off your bike.... wear a helmet too...

also thanks for your concern on my pain mgt... starting today I am allowed to incorpoarte some sitting into my routine - I also start rehab next week!!

I should be back to work part time in a couple of weeks, so I won't be able to bug you guys as much...

a full recovery is predicted at this point in 10 weeks (I can't wait - no pain and full mobility!)

I have learned alot since I have been down since last thursday by reading through the archives - you guys have really made me doulbe think some of my methods and opened my mind up to alternatives...

I reallly must say that you guys have helped me take my mind off my problems over the last couple of weeks and I do appreacite it... sometimes the best thearpy is trying to help others and it is nice when you guys make me laugh... -but it makes the incision in my back hurt:)

here's to a few good laughs!

yours truly,

-marc melton

[ This Message was edited by: drunkiq on 2002-10-05 13:45 ]

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-08 13:26 ]

Leedplyr · Regular Member Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 22

Just for your information. Monette does not have the best quality control and you can notice little lines in the cups. If you digitize a Monette and copy it what do you have? Will Kanstul put all the little lines in? If not, is it an exact copy? All the high-tec equipment is only as good as the operator, process, and calibration. Can that little red round ball on their digitizing machine pick up those little lines? I noticed they only go down one or two sides of the mouthpiece. I was at Kanstul's and they wanted my mouthpiece to digitize. I was there to try horns and didn't want a mouthpiece or to have my mouthpiece ripped-off. Their horns are over rated and cheap knock-off's as well. At Kanstul the only innovations have come from Flip Oaks and Callet. Maybe Zig should move to China. You want cheap, I'm sure Zig will make millions and you'll save a few bucks on a piece of junk. New innovations, quality, and value is coming from Conn and Yamaha right now. The smaller guys like Blackburn and Lawler make good stuff too. Bach owns the market and Conn so I guess you have to count them too. That could change so keep looking.

Kanstul makes knock-off's of many mouthpieces, although, they have rather poor quality. If they run 5 mouthpieces of the same kind, at the same time, they will be some what close to the same. If the they run them a few weeks apart you can notice quite a lot of change. It has been my experience that they lack consistency. Kanstul has no design skills or any innovations. They just steal and copy. Anytime you copy a photo some clarity is lost. I feel this is true with the Kanstul copies. Most are poor at best. They are cheap and you get what you pay for. If you want a Monette go to Monette or check ebay if you want something at a better price. If you want a knock-off from Kanstul is might as well be stamped MADE IN CHINA.
C. Revas

Rich_Nichols · Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 7:23 pm Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: Rich_Nichols on 2003-09-16 07:11 ]

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-08 13:26 ]

hpkhilma · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:02 pm Post subject:

The PRANA mouthpiece I received this week is different in appearance from regular Monette mouthpieces in a few ways.

1. The mouthpiece has a 'brushed gold' finish to it rather than the shinier plate gold finish. My question is, are all PRANAs made with brushed gold or was mine done that way to match the trumpet I ordered?
2. The bore is absolutely monsterous! You could drive a truck through this mouthpiece although it would have to be a very, very small truck:)
3. The wall of the shank is much thinner than the wall on my regular Monette mouthpiece.

The mouthpiece also plays differently. It really does push back if you get out of alignment although I haven't yet had it actually cut out on me. The soft dynamics are very easy to produce. It seems that you can play as soft as you can imagine. I found the tone to be very clear and warm. I'm very happy with my PRANA and would recommend it to anyone who has had a positive experience with the STC mouthpieces.

Sincerely,

Kevin Hilman

[ This Message was edited by: hpkhilma on 2002-10-22 11:06 ]

[ This Message was edited by: hpkhilma on 2002-10-22 11:07 ]