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razeontherock
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 Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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We certainly appreciate your thoughtful input Nick.
Dave, the concept of the tongue tip itself pointing slightly back towards the lower teeth instead of forward into the lip is just what happens when you shove a touch more tongue forward of the teeth. For me, because of the way my tongue is shaped, this puts a thicker portion of tongue in the "operative position," giving me tremendously more endurance. I experimented with this Christmas a year ago, overdoing it. Straightened that out in person w/ Jerry.
The overall effect is more tongue curl, requiring more pliability. This is what Bert is talking about; when the muscular demands of playing come anywhere near close to our max effort, we can't stay relaxed enough to actually play. This is the BIG physics answer to why TCE works: the tongue is a bigger, stronger muscle than the lips!
Also Bert, TCE articulations will be slightly different than the spit buzz off the horn. At first my tongue moved too much to articulate, and still probably does when I first pick up the horn. That seems to be what my warm up consists of, reminding the tongue what it needs to do to articulate. The bulk of it doesn't move at all, it just opens up a little channel right down the middle, just big enough for whatever note I want to play. Accuracy is better than ever - arpeggios are scary good! Tone is marvellously consistent throughout registers as long as I'm not fatigued, and I was always a big, bright overbearing lead player. That's what I call improvement! |
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Bert
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: |
Also Bert, TCE articulations will be slightly different than the spit buzz off the horn. At first my tongue moved too much to articulate, and still probably does when I first pick up the horn. That seems to be what my warm up consists of, reminding the tongue what it needs to do to articulate. The bulk of it doesn't move at all, it just opens up a little channel right down the middle, just big enough for whatever note I want to play. Accuracy is better than ever - arpeggios are scary good! Tone is marvellously consistent throughout registers as long as I'm not fatigued, and I was always a big, bright overbearing lead player. That's what I call improvement! |
I think that is why I cannot tongue in TCE fashion right now. The movement is much too big, giving me all kinds of indirect attacks and fuzzy sounds andd no control at all. I think I first have to feel how the tongue cooperates in tone production. I already feel how it should be done, but it's completely new and unstable. After that, I have to get my staccato going.
When I visited Bahb in Belgium, one of the things he listened for is a 'Dwa' attack. This happens if you move your tongue backwards after the attack. When you anchor it, the tone stands right away.
When I try to tongue the way TCE requires, it sounds much worse than DWA, so I have no control over my attack at this point. Practice, pracctice, patience...practice, practice, patience.....
Bert |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Jerry is also extremely critical of the DWA attack. TS says that the tongue striking like a snake is wrong. The tongue stopping each note is imperative before trying to start the next, and the air pressure stays constant which is much easier on the throat. Personally, I had to exaggerate this motion (complete with the dreaded DWA) before I had any hope of refining it. |
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: |
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By accident, after an extremely brief failed first attempt at TCE, I spent a few weeks playing with my tongue anchored behind my bottom teeth. I suspect it helped me put all my articulation issues "to bed" before I ever tried TCE. It's easy in comparision to TCE, so I think it's worth a brief try.
Dave
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NickD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: Doing a clinic tomorrow... |
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Well, it is 2/14 about 9:00 PM in Chicago. I'm taking a leave day to do a clinic and lecture at Glenbard North High School in Carol Stream, Illinois.
As I was warming up after an exhausting day at the the ol' day gig at NTHS, I was careful to set for TCE. I did the same thing last evening. Last evening, I was doing upper register stuff I've never done before. I do practice up to F over double as a rule, but yesterday I was hammering them better than I ever have before. Now, I have been trying to get away from the lead player thing as too limiting in my gig environment, but I did pull out a bunch of old lead charts that I've been asked to do many times in the past. Send In The Clowns, Tiger of San Pedro, Channel One Suite, etc. I felt unstoppable!
I was concentrating on KEEPING the tongue set properly AND slightly rolling in - a TAD bit more than normally, and it was WORKIN'!
I had little trouble pulling it together today, as well. Wednesdays are very tough for me at the day gig, and this was also the only good day to get my band over here to the studio for a primary rehearsal for our big concert next week (2/24) at Glenbard North. I did the same careful warm up, but severely truncated, due to time constraints. Neverthelss, I had a complete repeat of yesterdays ease. What was really fun today was that I was casually implementing this again in a jazz quintet environment. I could go from mellow to screaming with impunityand back and forth between flugel and trumpet with complete freedom.
Now, the ONLY problem I noticed yesterday was a strange thing. As I am attemptin to do the TCE thing and ascending in pitch, I found myself pressing the sides of the back of my tongue against my molars pretty hard. I wasn't cutting off my air - the volume and freedom of blow was great! It was just that I was very aware of squeezing the back of my tongue with my molars a tiny bit. It got a little uncomfortable, so I took a break.
Today, I concentrated (in warm up) on keeping my teeth a bit farther apart, to relieve this. That did help. I think I have a wierd wiring for a need for some tension or griping somewhere, mentally, hence this strange side effect. It wasn't much of a problem this evening, so I think I just need to open them up a bit.
As I get past this little caveat, I think I'll be getting quite a bit closer to pulling off TCE. Frankly, I'm pretty pumped up about it. I only rarely go much above double C on gigs. Frankly, I don't play high all that much at all as I am mostly working small groups. But on big band gigs and rock gigs, it'll be fun to uncork a nice D or F over double C now and then! Heh, heh!
I hope to earn my "black-belt" in trumpet this year! 
Peace.
Nick
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Nick, Jerry encourages a grip onto the molars but of course, it shouldn't physically hurt to do so. I bet that in another week or so you will have picked up enough extra strength and suppleness in the tongue to relax the grip a bit. Of course, opening the teeth a bit more, as you've done, is also a good thing.
<<big band gigs and rock gigs, it'll be fun to uncork a nice D or F over double C now and then!>>
Give 'em hell! Best regards, Kyle |
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Bert
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | Jerry is also extremely critical of the DWA attack. TS says that the tongue striking like a snake is wrong. The tongue stopping each note is imperative before trying to start the next, and the air pressure stays constant which is much easier on the throat. Personally, I had to exaggerate this motion (complete with the dreaded DWA) before I had any hope of refining it. |
Well, things are getting a little easier for me, because I think I discovered in what way my movement was too big or uncontrolled. I think it was you who wrote that most changes come from spitbuzzing off the horn. So I checked my spitbuzzes, and I am very certain I am doing those right. Then I compared it with my playing and the difference was very subtle but it made a huge difference in usability: up til now I tried to tongue off my top teeth. I touched my top lip in the process, but it didn't give me a fast nor a clean attack. When I spitbuzz, it's the other way around. I tongue off my top lip and touch my top teeth lightly in the process, because they are in the way a bit. It is even possible to not touch them at all, but just my top lip. That is something else. Immediately I could tongue with my tongue anchored to the bottom lip. Cannot do it very long, but control is much bigger and the attack is clean.
Together with rolling in against my tongue (moving towards the tongue is maybe more precise, but for me rolling in has exactly the effect I want, so I keep at it), it finally starts to come together.
Bert |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Great to hear you're making progress! I'd encourage you that the "short-cut" is strict focus on proper mechanics, even at the expense of technique, tone, range, etc. I made some "side trips" that seemed right because I played better, but they were dead ends. What helped was Mr Callet telling me to keep the tongue still through articulations, moving the lips to articulate. Well he didn't really TELL me that, that was an answer, and I really pressed him for one. Obviously this isn't what really happens, but it got things moving in the right direction. Also, you refer to the top lip moving in toward the tongue, which isn't necessarily bad; but I'd think you'd want your focus on the tongue moving forward, pressing into the top lip. More pressure for a higher pitch. Accuracy and control are just the tongue learning it's job.
All the best,
Ray
Ray
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Bert
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | What helped was Mr Callet telling me to keep the tongue still through articulations, moving the lips to articulate. |
That is what it actually feels like. It feels like you spit with your lips alone, but when your tongue is against your lips, the tongue is actually doing the spitmovement. It is hard to feel what exactly makes the spit, but I am very certain that the tongue does it.
| Quote: |
Obviously this isn't what really happens, but it got things moving in the right direction. |
Right, got it
[quote]
Also, you refer to the top lip moving in toward the tongue, which isn't necessarily bad;[quote]
I am not sure I said it like that, but it certainly feels more like the bottom lip coming in on the tongue.
| Quote: |
but I'd think you'd want your focus on the tongue moving forward, pressing into the top lip. More pressure for a higher pitch. Accuracy and control are just the tongue learning it's job. |
Funny that you say that the tongue presses into the top lip. This is exactly what I am experimenting with on the attacks. I was onlyy focusing on the tongue pushing the bottom lip, and it didn't work for the attacks. Pressing the tongue against the top lip helps!. It almost feels as if I am just doing TOL (like in BE, tip of the tongue strikes top lip), but the tip of the tongue is still on my bottom lip. In any case, my tongue is getting more into the play everyday now. It makes my setup somewhat unstable for now, and I hate that, but I think I'm on to something, because a few minutes each session, I sound totally different and much bigger, with great ease. Of course, have to give it some time and practice.
Bert |
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NickD
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Location: Chicago (northern suburbs)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: Getting better, but it's time for a phone call! |
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Well, last night I played with the Chicago Grandstand Big Band. I play the solo chair and Dr. Mike Stewart plays the lead chair.
A quick comment: Mike has been doing a great job with the lead chir on that band, but last night he was dead on! He hammered some really tough parts with a huge sound and just sounded great!!
Ok, back to TCE! I was experimenting all evening, and I am slowly startng to get better at this. We do an old Kenton tune called Concerto to End All Concertos. It features a Maynard solo. Maynard takes it up to a double C. I do know his solo, so out of a sense of homage, I try to ape it somewhat. I hit the double C it it popped out REALLY good as I was trying to keep my tongue right there along the back of my lower lip. Now, at that point I did something I don't usually do. I didn't leave well enough alone and decided to go for it! Heck it was a solo after all! So, I held the double C for a while and then did a gliss up to an F over double C. Now this is the first time I had the nerve to try this LIVE (I've done it recording). It came out, sorta... It wasn't a real big loud F over double C but it was there and I found it weasn't too hard to come out of it and work my way back down. The main difference here was the fact that I felt confident enough to go for it.
My biggest problem with that solo last night was the fact that we have played that chart for eons! I wasn't sure that I was lining it up as well as I could chronologically.
I feel I'm getting better at this TCE thing, but I seem to drift in and out of it in the heat of battle. I haven't hit the automatic stage, yet. I also think I need to develop it better. I'm keeping my teeth a bit farther apart (not squeezing the back with my molars as hard as I was), but I think I need to relax the corners more. I was trying to do more circular breathing on long notes and deliberately blowing my cheeks out in less exposed places to try to relax the sides a bit.
I really need to call Jerry. What I'd LIKE to do is schedule a trip out to NYC and hook up for a couple of lessons, but I can't afford it right now (my credit card account took a it when I placed the final order for my CD a couple of weeks ago - a "whole 'nuther story).
I'm going to give him a buzz this week after I've had a chance to solidfy my questions.
Gotta run 4 now!
Nick
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NickD
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: Getting better! |
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I think I am getting the hang of this!
This AM during advisory (home room - I don't teach a home room class), I skulked off to the practice rooms for 40 minutes. I worked my way up to a solid F over double high C with less effort than ever before. I kept the tongue right at the back of the lower lip and I did the tongue stopping to keep it in that spot. I would essentially sit buzz and tongue stop right inot the mouthpiece a fiew times before I began my apreggios exercises into the upper register.
I'm not sure I'm ready to say that I'ved got TCE going, but I think I'm getting closer. I still need to call Jerry! I post once agaion when we've talked.
More to follow!
Nick
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NickD
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: TCE Practice session recorded and online - temporarily |
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OK, folks, just for the heck of it, I recorded bit and pieces of my PRACTICE session today. I am trying to implement TCE and learn how to do this better. This is NOT a flawless performce. In fact it is not a performance at all! I am just trying to share what I am dong with this as I sort this all out. I hope to trigger more ideas about all of this. Here's what is on it.
I have a commentary intersperesed describing wha the heck I am up to.
I have one chord exercise up to E over double C trying to keep this together.
I have a bunch of Clarkes #2, single tongue (TCE style), k tongue and double tongue. Now I am not trying to make this flawless as much as I am trying to focus on keeping the form correct.
I stuck a few bars of Hot Canary just for goofing around purposes.
Finally, I stuck some practice on a couple of Mendez tunes I have begun re-working for a recording project, but with a TCE approach.
One last comment. I am using a new John Lynch Asymmetric mouthpiece a Led model 342M, with a different throat and backbore configuration. I REALLY like the way this feels! It isn't on the market just yet, but it will be soon. Stay tuned.
To hear this 8 minutes of madness go to...
http://www.mp3unsigned.com/NickDrozdoff.ASP
It's the last track.
Peace.
Nick
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oj
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi Nick,
Great to listen to!
We need more such examples (Kyle, Phillip and others who master TCE - Come on!)
Nick, was it a spit buzz you did before starting to play ?
Ole |
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Great stuff Nick. I'm looking forward to a complete demo of TCE exercises.  Just kidding, but it's sorely needed.
Dave
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NickD
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: Spit buzz |
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Yup, that was a mild spit buzz I was doing. I tend to close my eyes and spit buzz, concentraing on both starting and stopping the note with the tongue. Then, when I start the note on the trumpet, I concentrate on keeping my tongue right there, on top of my bottom teeth and just behind the top of he lower lip.
With the tonguing, I'm sorting out the T part of TK and TTK to keep the TCE position resonalby consistent when I am playing. The little Mendez exerpts are what I'm using right now. When I keep it relaxed on in that spot, I find the Mendez stuff comes out far easier than ever before.
I think I still need to think over the lips a little bit more, but I'm getting a bit closer. I still need to give Jerry another phone call (I think I've got one more coming with the purchase of my book or someting like that...).
Nick
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Bruno Fernandes
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Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: Wonderfull! |
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Hi Nick!!! GREAAAAAAT STUFF!!! I am doing TCE for 6 months, and my progress is very good! I have to admitt that your recording helped me a lot, specially the importance of tongue stopping!
i liked the other tracks in your website, it sounds marvellous!I will buy your cd tell me how can i purchase it.I am from Portugal, can you send it overseas?
Best Regards,
Bruno[/b] |
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NickD
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NickD
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Ah what a thing is learning... |
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Ok, folks, I feel compelled to restate and elucidate why I am working with TCE as part a larger learning process.
1.) In a recent ITG journal the book that Jerry and Bahb put was reviewed and many of the ideas in the review caught my attention because some of what was described was very close to my own style of playing which I have evolved into "on my own."
2.) I had a few lessons with Jerry many years ago during his "Superchops" phase. I found the lessons interesting, but many of the ideas were difficult for me to implement, though some were very helpful.
3.) I am not commenting in any way whatsoever about musicality. That having been said, let me move on to the next point. I have sat next to some stellar players - guys with incredible chops. I have enver sat next to anyone who could just take the hair off the back of a razorback hog the way Jerry could, and with no visible effort. Ok, remember, here, I'm just talking about playing loud and high, NOT music.
4.) I am always interested in getting new ideas about how to make my job easier. I don't care who the messenger it. I care only for the message. Jerry's new book definitely has my attention.
Now, so far, I have found most of the ideas to be very helpful. I like it. I want to go with this for a while and then I want to explore some other embouchrue methods. BE, for example, is one that comes to mind.
Another aspect of what caught my attention here were the sound files of Bahb Civiletti. He is doing some wonderful natural trumpet solos on his site. Absolutely gorgeous. Now if HE is using TCE there, well, they've got my attention.
For reasons that are not relevant here, I feel compelled to study some embouchure methods that I haven't explored before. I really like this section of TH as there are quite a few forums dedicated to the various methods I want to learn about.
In my humble opinion, there is no ONE method that is the ideal method for everybody. For me, I want to know MANY methods. I have no doubt my current playing make up is a hybridization of Trumpet Yoga, SuperChops, Claude Gordon, and Carmine Caruso as well as the ideas of the many private teachers I've studied with.
Thanks to TH and Kyle for having this place.
OK, now to get some practice in. I've been trying some new stuff, and I hope to record some more and post it. I think I've made some progress since my last recording.
Peace.
Nick
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Last edited by NickD on Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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NickD
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: More, today... |
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OK, now you other REAL TCE'ers out there get in here and fix anything I say that aint right!
As a new TCE explorer, I am finding that the big thing for me, initially is NOT retracting my tongue one I attack the note. Now, I concentrate on feeling the tip of my tongue sitting on top of my lower teeth just touching the back of my lower lip. I keep it there, and I'm working on getting a bit of an anchor tongue attack so I'm not tempted to pull it back, like I sued to. I don't feel like I am puching my lower lip forward with my tongue. I don't know if that is right or not. I just keep it thre sort of nudging. As I play the upper register, I am trying to convert my "ahh - eee" mentality into "compressing the air with the tongue" mentality. I'm not completely sure just how different they are, but I'm new to this, after all. Finally, I have always had a bit of a pivot when I play (bell dropping as I ascend in pitch). I don't think it has increased in any way, but I am very much aware of bring my lower lip up from the chin as I go up there. Personally, I have to watch it, and not slip into pinching when I do this.
I'm pretty carefully trying to adhere to Jerry's instructions in his book and I have only recently begun doing HIS high register exercises exclusively, abandoning my own routine for a while. I'm not worried about getting out of shape! There are some tough exercises in there.
I have some questions for Jerry. 1.) In the extreme TCE he discusses, is the tonge literally proturding through the aperture the whole time one is sounding a note? 2.) I feel a bit backed up with the air when I play the second exercise down on page 44 8va as instructed. I can do two or three fingereings and then I need to refresh the air a bit. How do I sort that out? 3.) I have the same problem with page 46. By keeping my tongue there, I can really wail on these, but I still feel a bit stuffed up. 3.) I really like page 47, but I just wonder if I doing them correctly, embouchure wise.
I must say that I feel like I get the best results when I feel like my lower lip is ever so slightly rolled in as compared to my usuall set up. However, when I say slight, I mean slight.
Finally, I just flat out stink on page 48, right now. If I can learn how to play that darn thing, I think I'll retire.
On second thought, maybe I'll just go on the road!
That's it for now.
Peace.
Nick
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NickD
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:10 am Post subject: More progress... |
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Ok, I had a killer practice session yesterday. I aim to repeat tonight, and it is getting easier and easier to reproduce.
Basically, I worked on a tiny bit more of a roll in and a slightly more relaxed set, yet keeping a firm grip on the mouthpiece (to borrow some of Jerry's words to me from some years ago at the end). I worked on his chop builders that get into the Maynard Excerpts and and the Bach Fuges and such. By sticking to his thing, I was able to pull these off easier than I have ever done so before. After folling with them, I went into a jazz pracitce (scales and chords and tunes), but I stuck with this set. veryting came out easier.
I THINK I'm pretty much doing a tce thing, now. What I would like to get is the "extreme" TCE that he mentions in the book. Right now, my tongue position is the tip is sitting on top of my lower teeth nudging, but not pressing too hard, against my lower lip. I feel as if I am channeling the air over my tongue right at the lips - this compression thing he refers to.
I have a call scheduled with Jerry at 4:30 PM tomorrow (tomorrow being Thursday, March 23, 2006) and I aim to clear some of these issues up.
I'm going to rececord a few of those crazy exercises and replace the old recording from last week. I'll let you all know when it's up. It'll be a couple of days.
OK, at this point, I am willing to commit to one statement here. This is not an endorsement. I get nothing whatsoever from this. I've been playng professionally for 25 years, now, and I've explored a lot of methods, and I'm in the process of exploring more (BE will be next, but in a few weeks). This having been said, TCE WORKS. It is certainly not for everyone, but it DOES work.
If you're looking for a way to navigate the range of the horn with more ease, this is a worthwhile way to consider going for it. The one thing that I will never say about ANY method (including my own), is that it is the ONLY or the BESt way. We're all different and we each have our own unique way of internalizing ideas. Hence the need for different "methods."
I am going to keep at this and keep posting here for at least another month before I explore something else. I hope to add to the idea pool here in an effort to hlep folks make use of this fine method book, "Trumpet Secrets."
Peace.
Nick
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Nick Drozdoff - Getzen Endorsing Artist
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