My Process of Adopting TCE professionally serious thread...

[NickD]

Ok, I had a killer practice session yesterday. I aim to repeat tonight, and it is getting easier and easier to reproduce.

Basically, I worked on a tiny bit more of a roll in and a slightly more relaxed set, yet keeping a firm grip on the mouthpiece (to borrow some of Jerry's words to me from some years ago at the end). I worked on his chop builders that get into the Maynard Excerpts and and the Bach Fuges and such. By sticking to his thing, I was able to pull these off easier than I have ever done so before. After folling with them, I went into a jazz pracitce (scales and chords and tunes), but I stuck with this set. veryting came out easier.

I THINK I'm pretty much doing a tce thing, now. What I would like to get is the "extreme" TCE that he mentions in the book. Right now, my tongue position is the tip is sitting on top of my lower teeth nudging, but not pressing too hard, against my lower lip. I feel as if I am channeling the air over my tongue right at the lips - this compression thing he refers to.

I have a call scheduled with Jerry at 4:30 PM tomorrow (tomorrow being Thursday, March 23, 2006) and I aim to clear some of these issues up.

I'm going to rececord a few of those crazy exercises and replace the old recording from last week. I'll let you all know when it's up. It'll be a couple of days.

OK, at this point, I am willing to commit to one statement here. This is not an endorsement. I get nothing whatsoever from this. I've been playng professionally for 25 years, now, and I've explored a lot of methods, and I'm in the process of exploring more (BE will be next, but in a few weeks). This having been said, TCE WORKS. It is certainly not for everyone, but it DOES work.

If you're looking for a way to navigate the range of the horn with more ease, this is a worthwhile way to consider going for it. The one thing that I will never say about ANY method (including my own), is that it is the ONLY or the BESt way. We're all different and we each have our own unique way of internalizing ideas. Hence the need for different "methods."

I am going to keep at this and keep posting here for at least another month before I explore something else. I hope to add to the idea pool here in an effort to hlep folks make use of this fine method book, "Trumpet Secrets."

Peace.

Nick
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[Jerry Freedman]

Could you explain your take on the "grip" as referred to by Callet?

[razeontherock]

Nick, great stuff!! Do keep us posted on your phone lesson w/ Jerry.

I'm very curious re: your experience w/ your current tongue position which must not be very much in front of the teeth, vs getting it farther forward. Personally, I moved that very deliberately for endurance which worked, and it took me a long time to regain the same control. Still, after a while in the Omnibook (for example) I revert back to a setting more like you describe.

And I'm still trying to keep my jaws consistently open throughout all registers, (might that be what you refer to as pinching?) and even though I'm improving at that I just bought corks today, Jerry.

Ray

[NickD]

I not exactly 100% sure what JERRY CALLET means by grip, but in my head I mean a sense of having my chops sort of hold or grip the mouthpiece a bit, as opposed of pushing the mouthpiece against my chops. It's more "bring the lips to the mouthpiece" as opposed to "pressing the mouthpiece aginst the lips."

Ray! TELL MORE ABOUT CORK! Are you suggesting putting some cork between the molars?

Gotta run.

Nick
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[Jerry Freedman]

I study with a Callet disciple although my teacher does not like or teach TCE, its Superchops. The first thing a student gets is a little quarter inch piece of cork that you put between your molars when you play...keeps your jaws wide open. I have asthma and cough a lot and I swallowed one. There are still a few rattling around my trumpet case

[NickD]

Jerry,

That's what I thought. Um, I'm not sure what to make of your predicament! I'm glad you're OK. My problem is that I think I need to keep my molars farther apart. Putting something in there came to mind, but choking on something that might come loose has kept me from giving that a go. I'm cool with theaching tools, but I worry that I might become dependant on one, but that's ME.

I am thinking that, when I hit the optimum jaw set for me, it will be obvious and I'll be able to reproduce that . I'm pretty close right now.

You SWALLOWED one! Whoaaa! Man, I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to have to ask Jerry about that when I talk to him tonight.

I'll post again tonight.

Gotta get to the ol' day gig.

Nick
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[Forte]

[NickD]

Great idea! Thanks for the input. I'll wait until I talk to Jerry tonight and take it all from there.

Nick
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[Jerry Freedman]

[NickD]

Well, folks, I had my second phone lesson with Jerry Callet at 4:30 PM today. It was quite interesting. He was really pushing me to keep my tongue much farther forward than I have been. When He talks about curling the tongue, in the extreme, I would be sticking my tongue down over the top of my lower teeth in between them and my lower lip and sort of lifting my lower lip up with the tongue! Now, this is in the extreme. I couldn't really play that way. However, as long as I tried to actively approach that, I found I could blow with much more freedom. It was quite interesting. I think this is what I was achievieng, a bit inadvertantly the ohter night. With his advice, I think I can do this much more at will.

I took the liberty of recording bits and pieces of an extended practice session this eveing before dinner. Now this is NOT flawless stuff, and it is certainly indelicate and non-musical. The are more just training exercises. I do feel they are helping me become more efficient. Here is a list of the pages I played from (if you have the Trumpet Secrest book).

P. 38 top
p. 39 bottom
P. 40 A and B in several keys
p. 49 in a few keys
P. 50 #12
P. 59 the first two chops builders (note I was just reading these down and there are few mistakes)
p. 61 another rendetion of Hot Canary (I think I was doing better with the tongue more forward this time).
P. 61 "Hey There" - Note: I stuck some of the mellow low melody in there before the big M.F. cadenza.

Again, there are flaws, but this was just PRACTICE! This will be taken down soon.

Also, at the end of this, I tossed in a little shout out to all of you, just for some fun.

OK, I'm still learning, but I think I'm getting better.

Here's the direct link to the sound file.

http://www.mp3unsigned.com/showmp3.asp?mp3ID=30355&aid=633

Have fun listening to this trumpet mayhem!



Nick
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[oj]

Nick,

Yodaman!

For a long time people have been asking in this forum for sound samples of TCE. Some have also asked Jerry, others Bahb and some have even "begged" Kyle for sound amples, but so far nothing.

Along comes Nick - and does it!

Great!

Nick, keep the soundfile for some days so I can check the T.S. book (I don't have it here at work).

Have a great weekend all of you!

Ole

[Bert]

Nick,

I am reading this with a lot of interest, but I cannot get the mp3unsigned tracks to work. I get to the page, and aafter that nothing happens anymore, does anyone have a clue?

Bert

[oj]

Bert,

Try this link:

http://www.mp3unsigned.com/bands/633tcesessiontwo.mp3

(it is the same MP3-file, but it should start your MP3 player in another way)


Ole

[NickD]

Those sound files are there. Sometimes, I THINK, the server gets clogged up. Also, my PC acts up now and then. I am on my family/kids PC at the moment, and I've got no sound coming out, but I know the file is trying to stream in. Something is messed up a little at this end.

Please try again, and re-post if the files don't play.

Now, I've got to figure out what up with THIS PC! Douggghhh!


Nick
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[NickD]

Well, it seems ok on my studio PC!

Gotta go to work!

Nick
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[NickD]

Ok, folks, I will probably pop back in here now and then to see if there are any questions that I might address, but this will be my OFFICIAL concluding post on my exploration of TCE.

My conversation with Jerry was vey interesting. It took me back a bit. I originally went to Jerry a couple of years or so after I left Maynard's band. I was having some serious chops problems. I also went to Carmine Caruso. Both men were very kind and patient with me. I was a bit panicked. My ability to support my family was in question and they were all to eager to help me.

So, talking to Jerry last night was a bit of a blast from the past for me. His firey rhetoric has not toned down one bit! I think I know where he is coming from, but his ability to step on toes still seems to be there. I don't think he means it in a bad way. I think he has very narrow view of what he expects of a trumpet sound. I DID NOT fit that mold, and he didn't spare me, so he is consistent. Personally I could tell he was sincere in his desire to share with me, and I enjoyed that. Whenever I deal with anyone I will focus only on the good they represent.

Now, as to his method.

After speaking with him, I think I see what he is driving at. When he suggested as an extreme example, putting my tongue between my lower lip and my lower teeth and lifting up my lower lip as I play higher. Now, the actual method seems a bit subtler than that, but I do see where he is going.

What is interesting to me is the notion of "as you play higher, the lower lip comes up." That is not new and I've seen this expressed in various places and methods. In fact, the asymmetric mouthpiece I use directly taps that thinking!

The idea of getting the tongue right behind the lower lip is also something that I have seen before. Most notably for me is in a video called Screamin' (or something like that; I'm not at home now).

What is quite different here is the idea of actually using the tongue to lift the lower lip - sort of help it along, so to speak. This is quite radical, IMHO.

Lastly, he brought up someting from his old Superchops book. The idea that the top of the lower lip will ascend above the bottom of the upper teeth. In fact, in Superchops, he says his lower lip comes up to his upper gum line. In his conversation with me yesterday, he was just saying over the bottom of the upper teeth. Inerestingly enough, I am doing that, and I didn't know it. I'm not WAY up there, but when I was getting rolling "really good" my lower lip was slightly above the bottom of my upper teeth. Things to make you go 'hmmmmmm...'

I have a rather firm but not inflexible, belief, that we each individually evolve into hybrid players, assimilating ideas from various sources and molding them to fit our own way of thinking about playing. I doubt I'll ever be a 100% TCE player. Ostensibly, that doesn't really matter to me. I just want to play my music with freedom, control and an whole toolbox full of options. This exploraiton has helped me add some more tools to the box!

I am not in the business of endorsing methods or books, and I fully intend to explore some other methods and see some other teachers. I am doing this just out of curiosity and fun - my choice. Some folks think I'm crazy, and that's OK. In any case, I honestly think Jerry and Bahb, have written a decent book. Before you flame me, remember, I started this whole project as the result of the publication of a review in the ITG Journal - the world wide scholarly journal for trumpet players! The review was very positive.

In defense of the sound files I've created in this process, let me say this. Carmine Caruso wrote a book called "Musical Calesthenics for Brass." Caruso comments that the exercises are anything but musical, but merely exercises designed to help one play better. Believe me, when I was doing the Caruso exercises, and if I recorded those, they would be ugly, too! Well, that is certainly the case here. These exercises are merely a tool for getting in shape to play. I don't PLAY that way! However, by internalizing what I need to do to play certain things, I can get them to pop out automatically when I am just playing music.

If my TCE sound file makes you question whether or not I want to make music, PLEASE listen to the other files on my site before you judge me harshly. I THINK I am a musican making what is his best concept of music. If after hearing those files you still think I am just making noise, I am 100% sincere in my apology in failing you at the moment. However, I will remain true to mine ownself. My MUSIC files are what I hear and want to share with the world as a musician - very individual stuff. I harbor no misguided ideas that I will please everyone. However, if just ONE person in the world feels his/her spirit lifted for having heard my music, I count myself a lucky man ineed!

TCE is most certainly not for everyone. However, it is most certainly worth investigating seriously! I'm very glad I did.

My next effort will have a bit to do with the Adams way of thinking. I'll come back to B.E. later. I want to do something completely different now. I will be beginning that effort on the weekend. I have a several gigs, and one of Adams biggest proponents in the Chicago area will be working with me on Saturday night.

Peace, to you all!

Nick
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[_dcstep]

Thanks for sharing Nick. When you post in the BE and Adams forum, let us know if there's anything TCE-relevant.

I just hope that readers will not get lost with some assumption that it's either the TCE-way or no-way. Simply getting the tongue forward and my jaw more open were enormous strides for me. In about 10-months of experimenting I get closer and closer to 100% TCE. I may never get all the way there and reserve the right to use my relatively large mpc and keep my lips largely rolled out, etc., etc.

Callet is the only one teaching a tongue-anchored-forward methodology, but his application is a very specific application of that kind of setting. However, within that basic concept their are thousands of possible highly effective and efficient settings. This is the best place I've found to discuss the broader concept of tongue-forward embouchure because every TCE-er has messed around with non-orthodox TCE.

Dave
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[oj]

Great post Nick!

I like your idea, and kind of have had a similar interest myselt - digging into a lot of different methods and systems. Before I found og stumbled over TCE I did BE.

Will be interesting to hear about the reverse (first TCE then BE).

I even did you system for a while some years ago

Btw, I also have Bill Carmichael's video Screamin. He told me in an email that he studied with Jerry Callet.

In my opinion Bill's system is very much along those lines and he should have stated more clearly that he got things from Callet.

Bill has a website here:

http://www.screamin.net/

Ole

[tptguy]

"Grip" - Nick said he did some posting on TM so I popped in to see if there was anything helpful. The brief discussion included an erroneous explanation by another person about what Jerry means by grip. So, I'll try to clear that up. The poster said that it dealt with a pucker gripping into the mouthpiece. Jerry makes it very clear in his "Superchops" book that he does not believe in or advocate a pucker. And, he includes a very clear explanation of why. Precisely opposite a pucker, Jerry is talking about a grip back away from the mouthpiece, a grip of the lips back against the forward flow of air. In his words, "The stronger your lip resistance is in the center of your lips the less the mouth corners need to tighten and lips stretch incorrectly." "...very little air enters the trumpet when you play loud double high C's. By relaxing this grip to go lower you gradually allow more air to enter the trumpet." p6.

In TCE the concept very much remains the same. The idea is that the lips grip back against the forward tongue in order to resist the air. This prevents collapse into the mouthpiece and tremendously increases endurance. In "Secrets" he says, "As you ascend in range, your lips must apply greater pressure on the tongue. Do not squeeze your lips together against each other. Rather, squeeze your lips against the forward and thickened tongue. Slightly relax your lip pressure to descend." p.14 Hopefully, this clarification will get readers back on track.

In the same TM post the writer makes another erroneous statement by saying that the use of the TCE tongue is the old anchored tonguing taught by other instructors. As I'm sure everyone here knows how incorrect that one is I won't spend any additional time on it. I'll just repeat what I've said in the past, it's a shame when people that clearly haven't studied the system try to tell other people what it's about. That's a big part of what creates so much confusion out there. The correct information is in the books, serious students should get referred there. Best to all, Kyle

[tptguy]

Ole, I remember when Bill came out with his video. As the video was 99.99% Jerry's Superchops lessons I know that a bunch of Jerry's students were very angry at Bill for putting it out there without giving proper credit where credit was due. - Kyle