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NickD
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 Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: My Process of Adopting TCE professionally serious thread... |
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OK, I sort of started this a couple of weeks ago, but I let the thread drop and get obfuscated a bit. I want to start this officially and FOLLOW it carefully. I am convinced that I have inadvertently adopted a TCE approach that could be fine-tuned into the real thing. I am more convinced than ever that Jerry and BAHB have figured out how to get this across. Frankly, I’m excited.
I am just trying to reconcile my methods with Jerry’s and BAHB’s TCE method. I think I’m close, but I want to put a thread in here and leave it open to input from all of you. I am 100% sincere in my desire to improve my playing – a constant quest. At this point in my life, I’m reasonably content with my range. I am looking to make the job as physically EASY as possible! I am not a professional athlete; I’m a professional musician.
About my thing: I will skip my personal history of chops save to say that shortly after I left Maynard Ferguson’s band in 1981, I ran into some career damaging chops problems. I went to Jerry and studied his Suprechops method (I took some lessons in his shop way up in Harlem – that goes back a way!). I was able to take SOME ideas home, but I was particularly stuck on his idea of having the lower lip ABOVE the TOP gum line. Let me explain my consternation.
I could, and still can, make very high squeaks with my chops by curling both lips in, but held in front of the teeth by air pockets. I could completely freak out my moms cats doing this, though they liked my laser pen much better! J In any case, my lower lip is up there when I do this – top lip about even with the top gum line. I can make this squeaky sound into my horn and get wispy notes out in the vicinity of G over double C (a 12th above high C, which is only two ledger lines above the staff, just to keep things straight. However, I could not make this gel into a solid trumpet sound. I abandoned the thought. Nevertheless, I couldn’t help feel that Jerry had somehow figured out a way to take this set and re-work it into a viable method for extreme trumpet work. I’m probably wrong there, but there are some comments in his NEW book that bring this back into my thought again. More later.
In any case, I took from Suprechops what I could. I created my own method (Embouchure Design) and fine-tuned it with some help from Bobby Shew. Using this approach, I solved the potentially career damaging chops problems. My range has been pretty solid to an F over double C IN PRACTICE sessions (an 11th above the 2 ledger line high C mentioned earlier). On gigs, I’ve pretty solid to double C for four or more hours at a time, though I don’t really think about that all that much.
I’m pretty comfortable with my range. However, I feel I can figure out how to make things even easier and perhaps increase my USABLE range. Thus my keen interest in the new TCE thing. Also, I adopted something similar. Let me explain (again- this is, in part, in some other posts).
I started doing free buzzing as part of my rebuilding. I found that what worked for me was to position the tip of my tongue just behind my lower lip with the front tip of my tongue sitting on top of my lower teeth with about ¼ to ½ inch of the tip of my tongue sticking between my front teeth. My teeth are far enough apart for my tongue to comfortably nudge the back of the top of my lower lip. Doing things this way allowed me to buzz my lips with virtually the same lip formation that I use when I play. I can free buzz up to a high C. This is NOT what Jerry recommended to me over the phone, but I had little trouble getting the sound he was looking for doing things this way.
I use this same tongue position when I buzz a ring visualizer. However, with the ring, I can buzz up to between a high G concert and double C concert. I find I use very little pressure in buzzing the ring way up there. The trouble there is that I feel very backed up with air pressure. I have to be careful to not PINCH the lips together (a symptom of which is the trouble in getting air through there).
In Jerry’s book he talks about having as much as one inch of the tongue sticking past the tip of the teeth. This is a departure for me. He also talks about flattening out the tip so that it spreads out and touches the whole width of the lower lip. This is something that I DO find happens naturally for me. Both Jerry and BAHB (I was reading BAHB’s site last night) recommend against syllabic phonemes for register control. This is another departure. I tend to think EEEE or HISSSS for high and AWWWW for very low. They do however, allow for the tongue to arch up (look at the pictures!).
When I set out to develop my own approach, I was seeking a way to take my own playing style and make it better. I didn’t want to STOP playing to completely retrain. I had mouths to feed, and I had to work. M approach was designed to allow me to make the fixes without loosing a day of work. In retrospect, while I thought Suprechops could threaten my working for a while, knowing what I know now, I don’t think this was true.
Now, to wind up this post. I was reading some of Jerry’s comments last night. He mentioned players who blow their cheeks out. He was referencing paintings of Baroque trumpeters all show with their cheeks puffed out. He was encouraging this sort of relaxation, though not necessarily letting the cheeks completely puff out. Over the last few years, I taught myself to circular breath, so letting my cheeks do this isn’t a problem. Also, Jerry emphasizes NOT having the corners tight. So does BAHB, however BAHB’s description is different from Jerry’s. Now, to refer back to the squeaky-lip thing: this puffing out of the cheeks and lips makes me wonder about the possibility that, perhaps, a completely different mode of vibration may be coming into play that would result in an utterly different way of play the trumpet!
Well, last night, in a practice session and then a big band rehearsal I tried some things. While practicing, I deliberately blew my cheeks out while working on high notes. I also paid special attention to keeping my tongue pressed all along the top of my lower lip. I have had a tendency to pull the tongue back after attack. Well, in doing this, I found things worked quite nicely. In fact, at the band rehearsal, I felt my sound was bigger and more enveloping by just keeping the front of my tongue in place! I felt like I could play all night without tiring at all. Needless to say, my interest is piqued!
I feel the need to fine tune things here. I have posted some of this before, but I want to watch this thread carefully and see what I can learn. I DON”T want to be mired in minutiae when I perform. I want to make music. However, with practice, I think I can make my playing setup much more efficient by doing things this way.
I look forward to all of your input.
Nick Drozdoff
PS: Please feel free to listen to my online music. I hope to verify that I can basically play the horn already and that my motivation is to make things work better. FWIIW, I've got a little double C on the trading 8's section of Blues Waltz. In any case, I think TCE will be the ticket!
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jonas quizman
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: Re: My Process of Adopting TCE professionally serious thread |
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Hi Nick, very informative and interesting post!! Let me throw in a few remarks.
| NickD wrote: | I started doing free buzzing as part of my rebuilding. I found that what worked for me was to position the tip of my tongue just behind my lower lip with the front tip of my tongue sitting on top of my lower teeth with about ¼ to ½ inch of the tip of my tongue sticking between my front teeth. My teeth are far enough apart for my tongue to comfortably nudge the back of the top of my lower lip. Doing things this way allowed me to buzz my lips with virtually the same lip formation that I use when I play. I can free buzz up to a high C. This is NOT what Jerry recommended to me over the phone, but I had little trouble getting the sound he was looking for doing things this way.
I use this same tongue position when I buzz a ring visualizer. However, with the ring, I can buzz up to between a high G concert and double C concert. I find I use very little pressure in buzzing the ring way up there. The trouble there is that I feel very backed up with air pressure. I have to be careful to not PINCH the lips together (a symptom of which is the trouble in getting air through there).
In Jerry’s book he talks about having as much as one inch of the tongue sticking past the tip of the teeth. This is a departure for me. |
It would be interesting to know what you do with your lips while sticking your tongue out about less than half an inch? It seems to me that your lips are rolled in and closer to the teeth as Jerome or Babh would recommend. Could you expand on the use of your lips? Do you squeeze your lips, apply lip to lip pressure or do you simply roll them in without appling any vertical pressure? Jerry's one-inch-rule is just a guideline, though an important one! Experiment a bit with pushing out your tongue a bit further. Your judge should be the sound and ease of sound production! If Mr. Callet was content with you, you are definitely on the right track.
| NickD wrote: | | Also, Jerry emphasizes NOT having the corners tight. So does BAHB, however BAHB’s description is different from Jerry’s. Now, to refer back to the squeaky-lip thing: this puffing out of the cheeks and lips makes me wonder about the possibility that, perhaps, a completely different mode of vibration may be coming into play that would result in an utterly different way of play the trumpet! |
Could you explain, why you think that as to the no-tight-corners-rule you think that Jerome's description differs from the one Bahb has given. I own both books and checked on your information, but can't confirm your claim. How do they differ?? Also, I would like to know why you think that puffing out the cheeks (- not a rule, but something Jerome and Bahb would not correct!) would be an indication of a different way to play the trumpet?
Best regards,
jonas
P.S.: I checked out your audio clips and must say you really can play the horn! |
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NickD
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Ah, so it begins! Great! This is what I was looking for.
| Quote: | | It would be interesting to know what you do with your lips while sticking your tongue out about less than half an inch? It seems to me that your lips are rolled in and closer to the teeth as Jerome or Babh would recommend. Could you expand on the use of your lips? |
I practiced for about 1.5 hours on my lunch break today, on both natural C trumpet and Stage 1 Vintage Bb. I wanted to focus on some tips I just got via email from BAHB. I was really tickeled with getting some more ideas in focus. I have to ask his permission to post quotes from his email here.
As to your comments, I must asy that I have never thought about rolling my lips in or out ever. For me it has always been about the tongue. I would seem to need to think the lip thing through more to answer your questions. Good stuff!
| Quote: | | Could you explain, why you think that as to the no-tight-corners-rule you think that Jerome's description differs from the one Bahb has given. |
This is from BAHB's web site.
| Quote: | | Avoid tightening the mouth corners as in a smile. |
Jerry says not to tighten the corners. He harped on that a lot with me when I studied with him in person, too. No problem. However, there has been some changes in Jerry's approach over the years (to his credit - chage as your understanding expands!). The "smile" analogy turned up in his first book, "Trumet Yoga." He later abandoned that description. Now, BAHB's use of the idea of avoiding the "smiley" look gave me a different impression from what I was getting from Jerry. I.e., it has a different impact on my conectptualization.
I have no doubt these guys are on the same page. However, if they didn't say things differently, why bother to write two books?  Here at NTHS we have 9 physics teachers. We ALL teach Newton's Laws. I guarantee we each address them differently. Different rhetoric communicates differntly with different folks. BAHB's remark, IMHO, amplified on what Jerry was saying to me. He must be OK with that! He's got both their pictures on his book! 
I have a real hard time thinking about rolling the lips, as I'm not sure exactly what folks mean. When I get home and get back to my horn today, I have another go at it and do the mirror thing, then I'll post here again.
| Quote: | | Also, I would like to know why you think that puffing out the cheeks (- not a rule, but something Jerome and Bahb would not correct!) would be an indication of a different way to play the trumpet?
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I would suggest re-reading my original post about the "squeaky lip" thing I mentioned. It's hard to describe, but what I AM attempting to describe is NOT exactly a way to play trumpet, traditionally, anyway. I'd try to write something differently here, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. It would be easire to show you what I mean. I don't think it really matters though. What I've gotten from Jerry (via a phone call) and BAHB (via a couple of email exchanges) indicate to me that I'm onto the right track by exploring TCE.
Thanks for you input! I look forward to learning mre.
Nick
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Bert
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| NickD wrote: | | I would suggest re-reading my original post about the "squeaky lip" thing I mentioned. It's hard to describe, but what I AM attempting to describe is NOT exactly a way to play trumpet, traditionally, anyway. I'd try to write something differently here, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. It would be easire to show you what I mean. I don't think it really matters though. What I've gotten from Jerry (via a phone call) and BAHB (via a couple of email exchanges) indicate to me that I'm onto the right track by exploring TCE.
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I don't want to start another BE/TCE battle, but what you describe here sounds an awful lot like the Roll in (RI) exercises in Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure. I've heard and see people playing incredibly high (even beginners!) on this 'trick embouchure'. Maybe it is a trick embouchure, but if you can make it work (as I understood Ghitalla had a way to do this) you're off. If you look at James Morrison play, it looks like he knows how to make this setup work.
I took lessons from both Bahb and Jerry, and we were only discussing the function of the tongue. I am also a very dedicated BE student, AND I am a pro player with mouths to feed like you say. So, what goes for you goes for me, we cannot afford to take the risk to change our setup and find ourselves not able to play a note anymore.
Through BE my chops got reliable, and now I am experimenting with TCE, but I cannot really find a way to get it working. I tried the last couple of month to work on Bahbs exercises, about two hours a day, but it didn't get me anywhere. Now that I read your post, I am very interested in what you say, because you seem to have a way of combining lip compression with tongue compression, and this seems like an indirect road to TCE.
I am rambling a bit, but I will follow this discussion and maybe jump in some time.
Bert |
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NickD
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: Thanks Bert! |
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Bert, your last remark is where I'm coming from. I see what I've devolped "on my own" (I don't really believe that; -we are all influenced by all who impact on our lives - "No Man Is An Island") as being quite close to what Jerry and BAHB doing.
I don't mean to suggest for a moment that Jerry and BAHB have created a "trick embouchure." I've heard Jerry quite a few times. BAHB sounds just INCREDIBLE on natural trumpet. There is nothing "tricksy" there! I just wonder if there is a connection of some sort.
I don't know about BE. I'm gonna have to give that a look. I also have a Bill Carmichale video. His comments on tongue position are also very interesting.
I DO have a trick embouchre that I employ when horsing around. I can just sail away on F's and G's over double C, but I don't really have control over it. I'll probably experiment some more with it.
Ostensibly, it is all about making music and joy, isn't it? How it comes out of the front end of our horn isn't nearly as important as the fact that it does.
Great contributions friends! Keep it coming.
Nick
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Nick, thanks for your great informative post.
Maybe I can help you with some thoughts about "roll-in" vs. "roll-out" vs. "neutral".
I think of a "neutral" setting as the one you get when you say "P", where the lips come together and a good part of the fleshy red is showing.
"Rolled-in" begins with a setting that results from saying "M" and shows little or no fleshy red and can progress even further in where no red shows at all.
"Rolled-out" is like you're blowing on a spoon full of soup to cool it, with the lips puckered outward away from the teeth. You probably know Rich Szabo. As Rich ascends his lips push out away from the teeth.
Callet's drawings seemed aimed at a "rolled-in" setting, but I question whether that's really needed. I'm experimenting with a neutral to slightly rolled out setting.
Also, are you engaging both the top and bottom lip with your tongue or simply nudging your top lip occasionally with the tongue from it's setting against the lower lip? Is your tongue anchored to some position on the back of your lips?
It's great to see your involvement with TCE.
Dave
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Bert
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks Bert! |
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| NickD wrote: |
I don't mean to suggest for a moment that Jerry and BAHB have created a "trick embouchure." I've heard Jerry quite a few times. BAHB sounds just INCREDIBLE on natural trumpet. There is nothing "tricksy" there! I just wonder if there is a connection of some sort.
Nick |
It doesn't matter how it looks, or what people do to play the way they play. If it sounds good, it IS good. I heard Bahb doing incredible things, so he must be doing something good. Nothing 'tricky' about that.
Interesting to me is that you talk about blowing your cheeks's what got you going.
I have been doing Bahbs exercises for some time now, but only when I combine the anchored tongue with my normal, somewhat rolled in and blown cheeks-setup, does it work a bit. I am experimenting with tongue position now. I try to shift from a relaxed tongue (in fact, my tongue touches my bottom lip pretty easily, but it dis not involved in tone production the way it's supposed to be in TCE) to an active tone producing/enhancing tongue position. Exaggerated it's like this:
I tried it a couple of times when I blow a high C, I just thrust my tongue against my bottom lip and push ( I used to really push, but I discovered that a light push or spreading movement across my bottom lip works better). It happened a couple of times that my tone jumped up a fifth to high G. Sometimes with good tone, sometimes a screech. I also tried this from DHC, and it gave me a squeaky, freaky G above DHC. Promising.
I think I experiment some more with this. It combines two things: my normal setup and a forward tongue movement. I am trying to get some control over this and hope to get the feel for the notes this way.
Bert |
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NickD
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Rolling, rolling, rolling, keep them dawgies rolling... |
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Hi Dave!
Ok, using your descriptors, I tend to roll out a bit on one side and neutral to in on the other. How's them apples! I'm not, nor have I ever been symmetric. One side of my chops looks a bit differently from the other OUTSIDE of the mouthpiece. Inside, it looks pretty symmetrical.
Now, via the ideas I've gleaned from Jerry, BAHB and now some of you posters, I keep my tongue anchored just touching the top of my lower lip. The tip is sticking between my open teeth. As per an email exchange with BAHB, I'm now trying to keep my tongue also in contact with the upper lip. He told me that all THREE surfaces are involved in the vibration! Cool!
Now what is interesting to me is that, if I wish to, I can pull my tongue back and just let it move around when I'm playing. It just seems to make things a bit easier by setting it as per TCE. That only applies to when I'm playng the horn or BERP. Free (spit) buzzing or playing the ring visualizer, REQUIRE me to keep the TCE set. OK, I CAN retract the tongue on the ring, but I end up pressing too hard for may taste to ascend into the altissimo on the ring that way, so I keep the TCE going there.
OK, that's it for now. Gotta go be with my family. I'm off tonight, but I'm going to be doing some copywork for my CD release concert and practicing!
Peace.
Nick |
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NickD
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DHC = "Double High C" |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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There are some great things in this thread, especially this:
"Ostensibly, it is all about making music and joy, isn't it? How it comes out of the front end of our horn isn't nearly as important as the fact that it does."
From Nick.
As a beginner I did more or less what you describe now, and to go to textbook TCE just brings the tongue into permanent contact with both lips. Mr. Callet does say the tongue is actually involved in the vibration causing the sound, others aren't so sure. It certainly is easier! (once you getthe knack) If I had instruction like that, I wouldn't be saying I haven't really played trumpet professionally a lot for 25 years. Sure is fun to be playing, and progressing.
Ray
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digs
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome thread full of great stuff guys!
Nick, you say you can move your tongue around in your mouth while you play if you want to. When I'm in TCE setup, my tongue is pointed down slightly in front of my lower teeth, so that it is between my lower teeth and lower lip. If I pull it out of there (while playing or not) there is a very different feeling going on, in particular the lower lip moves in against the teeth if my tongue isn't in there.
I can play in my old setup and then move my tongue forward and touch the lower lip, and it does improve some things when I do this, but I don't think it is TCE because the tongue is not at all in front of the lower teeth.
Is your tongue in front of the lower teeth at all when you are touching the lower lip?
Digs |
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NickD
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: Yo, digs! |
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Yo, Digs!
I just like the sound of that!
The tip of my tongue is about 1/4 of an inch in front to the top of my lower teeth when I play. BAHB and I have exchanged some ideas there. He was encouraging that I may not need to puch it in there any more.
When I am buzzing my lip or the ring visualizer, I CAN'T pull my tongue back or the note will stop completely. When I am on the mouthpiece BERP or playing the horn, I can pull it back and keep playing just fine, but it certainly does feel different.
Sorry, I've been online for a while dealing with some other threads. I have to run for now. Got a bb gig today! Gonna mess with TCE smoe more.
Nick
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NickD
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: Interesting gig... |
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Well, I was goofing around with different sets today on a big band gig. When I felt like I was getting closer, it would just sail out there. I messed up wiht it couple of times, though! Oh well! Ain't no thang!
What I was trying was to keep the tongue set, as I've mentioned before, but rolling in a tiny bit more than I am used to - just TINY bit. As long as I didn't get tempted to press too much and keep it relaxed, I could make things come out much easier. A couple of times, I'd set up this way and then pushed the mouthpiece a bit to hard and pinched it off. Ah, but the soloists privilage is that I can get away with a mid stream correction. I had to do this on an old Maynard tune the band likes me to play (Coconut Champagne). The first high G clipped, so I "creatively" (or perhaps clumsily) improvised a re-attack. That time I got the set right and was able to hold onto a nice double C sus for "hotdog" effect. It went better on the DC.
I feel like I'm right on the edge of making this all work a lot better! Gotta keep at it. Now, I did NOT have ANY time whatsoever for any sort of warm up before I got to work. I played absolutely stone cold. I had too much family duty calling before I left for work and the church gig did not really have the proper warm up space for me to "go to town" for a few minutes. I had to live with a bit of buzzing in the car and then a few notes in a mute right before we played. So it goes!
I am also becoming hooked on playing my natural trumpet. The other day, when I spent my initial playing on my natural C trumpet, I then went and did a normal warm up on B-flat. Then when I went to a rehearsal later that evening. Things just felt effortless.
The more I get into this, the more I am getting a feeling that this is a technique and NOT a result of special prowess or physical strength. That makes TCE even more beguiling.
OK, that's it for now. Still at it!
Peace.
Nick
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Technique, control, co-ordination.
Still, you develop strength in a different portion of the tongue, which really makes things easier, taking strain off the chops. After a while, the ability to keep the tongue flexible and not get too rigid becomes a factor, but it is still less strength and more technique.
Keep us posted on your progress! (i.i., let us know how a real player makes the transition) |
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Bert
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Interesting gig... |
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| NickD wrote: | | What I was trying was to keep the tongue set, as I've mentioned before, but rolling in a tiny bit more than I am used to - just TINY bit. Nick |
| Quote: |
After a while, the ability to keep the tongue flexible and not get too rigid becomes a factor, but it is still less strength and more technique. |
These are the two things that are happening in my playing, too.
I have been doing two months of Bahbs exercises, about two hours a day. My chops weren't really stable anymore and I had a recording, so I abandoned TCE for a month. Didn't really know for sure if I would do it again.
Now that the recordings are over, I have some time to practice and (of course) couldn't help my self to try some of the TCE stuff again. After reading this thread, my interest was wide awake again, because exactly the things that I read from Nick, are the things that are getting me in the ball park.
I was fooling around a bit. I played high C and tried to anchor my tongue and push it gently. Suddenly some higher harmonics popped out. I did it again and I played from high C to D to E to F# to G and back. My lips didn't do much, but my tongue flexed. I could even filter one harmonic, so I could play a pattern like C-E, D-F#, using the movement of my tongue. BTW I didn't play staccato, I slurred. For now I spitbuzzing is only off horn, I cannot make a nice attack with an anchored tongue (yet). But the feeling that I control pitches with my tongue is absolutely new to me.
What it feels like right now is that I roll in (yes!) against my tongue. My tongue prevents the lips (especially the bottom lip) from rolling in too far, but I definitely roll in.
My tongue doesn't really push the lip out, but it prevents the lips from rolling in too far. The tongue feels supple. The moment the tongue starts to push it cannot longer flex to filter the harmonics, so I have to keep it relaxed. (I think that this was my mistake when doing Bahbs exercises: I really pushed hard until my tongue started to ache).
It's almost like this: I play a pitch the way I am used to and use this pitch as an anchor point. Then from there I anchor my tongue and I can play some higher harmonics by flexing my tongue.
For the moment my attack is tongue against top lip. I cannot make a spitbuzz on my trumpet without my straining my tongue, so I practice spitbuzzing without my horn.
Why do I tell this? Well, the visitors on this forum are looking for ways to make a transition from whatever embouchure to TCE. It seems that for me the transition (if that is ever really going to happen) is coming from an unexpected angle and indirect. And not through spitbuzzing directly on the hor, but by playing legato and feeling my tongue make the pitches (of course this is not something I invented. Bahb talks about this in his book, but the new thing is that for me it seems to be the road to TCE).
Through BE I learned to play with a closed aperture, my lips learned to roll in when ascending. When I try to anchor my tongue while playing I suddenly feel how my tongue helps the lips to vibrate.
For the moment this only works on legato and slurs, but I wouldn't be surprised that once I get the feeling right, spitbuzzing will give me a nice attack.
My practice routine (besides BE) consists of 15 minutes of 'free' spitbuzzing, and playing scales and Clarke like exercises slurred, but with my tongue anchored. Just trying to get the feeling of the tongue helping the buzz.
Bert |
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Interesting gig... |
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| NickD wrote: | ...
What I was trying was to keep the tongue set, as I've mentioned before, but rolling in a tiny bit more than I am used to - just TINY bit. As long as I didn't get tempted to press too much and keep it relaxed, I could make things come out much easier. A couple of times, I'd set up this way and then pushed the mouthpiece a bit to hard and pinched it off. ... |
I've made a lot of progess in the last week, working with a tiny bit of roll-in with the tongue anchored and touching both lips. I start each playing session with some a few spitz buzzes off the horn, then put the horn to my face and try to get the same feel. Then I do some light, short spitz buzz note attacks, jumping octaves focusing on the aim at the target. Then I move to a few minutes of whisper-quiet playing, but starting on high-C or the G just below, rather than middle-line G. The focus is on getting clarity of tone and freedom from stress. Once that's going, then can move it up to my G over high-C top with no trouble.
I'm actually thinking that I'll soon break free of that G limit. Random higher notes are coming out now. I'm thinking that it might be easier to jump on up to the C and try to come down from there instead of fighting that A.
When I play music or techinical exercises the volume easily comes as needed. I'll occasionally play a whisper-quiet note to make sure I've still got the precision going.
BTW, I moved to a slightly freer blowing GR67C** in the last couple of weeks and it seems to be helping in all regards. I just mention that because it's a little outside of TCE-orthodoxy.
Dave
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jonas quizman
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Interesting gig... |
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Nick, this thread has been really interesting for me. So let me ask you a few more questions.
| NickD wrote: |
What I was trying was to keep the tongue set, as I've mentioned before, but rolling in a tiny bit more than I am used to - just TINY bit. As long as I didn't get tempted to press too much and keep it relaxed, I could make things come out much easier. |
1. I don't know wether I understand you correctly, but when you speak about rolling in you are talking about both your lips? I ask this because some people (when doing TCE) use a little tongue curl, i.e. the tongue surface touching both lips but the tip of the tongue pointed against the teeth instead of pushing out against the lower lip. What happens to your mouth corners when you play in the TCE manner and how does this compare to the way you operated your mouth corners before making the transition to TCE?
2.It seems to me that in your case the transition to TCE works really smoothly. Maybe because you have never been that far away from the 'true' TCE. You seem to have good control of rolling your lips in or how did you achieve range and endurance before you touched upon TCE? How did you use your tongue?
3. On your website I found several interesting articles on the physics of brass instruments, which I enjoyed reading. Since you are physicist, I would very much appreciate if could share with us your thoughts on how and why TCE should work.
Best regards,
jonas |
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_dcstep
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Interesting gig... |
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| jonas quizman wrote: |
1. I don't know wether I understand you correctly, but when you speak about rolling in you are talking about both your lips? I ask this because some people (when doing TCE) use a little tongue curl, i.e. the tongue surface touching both lips but the tip of the tongue pointed against the teeth instead of pushing out against the lower lip. |
Whoa Nellie, that's a totally new TCE-image for me. I've never seen a drawing from Jerome or Bahb that would indicate that.
In my case, the force of my anchored tongue is directed down into the bottom lip. This forms an arched "wedge" in the tongue between the bottom lip and the top teeth that pushes with varying degrees of force against the top lip.
Have I missed something?
I don't have my horn nearby, so I can only try to spitz-buzz with my tongue anchored on my bottom teeth. I CAN do that if I roll my lips in a little more, so it seems that it'd work "on the horn". Are others doing this besides jonas? Is this something Jerome sometimes teaches?
Dave
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NickD
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Joined: 19 Jun 2005
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Location: Chicago (northern suburbs)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: Physics and stuff... |
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Thanks for all of the input!
As to my physics page...
That will be getting taken down before too long. I have not been maintaining that page, and due to a bad migration proceedure established by SBC/Yahoo when the bought out Geocities, I can no longer edit that page at all! It needs SERIOUS changes. During a lull (which is most certainly NOT right now), I plan on moving all of that stuff to anotther server.
Now, Which lip am I rolling in? I dunno...both, I guess.
I am noticing one interesting thing here, and this is exacerbated by having a tough day today, but maybe that can add some light to this. Here is a problem I see arising. "focusing on minutiae" I see the necessity for doing some of this to get things correct, but I also honestly believe that a full blown application of TCE will vary from individual to individual, so getting too specific about inches or centimenters here and there may obfuscate a bit.
Nevertheless, I welcome all of the minutiae! In the context of this thread it is perfectly appropriate. I only bring it up as a warning that I suspect that results will vary!
As to the physics of TCE, I'm going to have to wait on that, if you don't mind. That will require some thought, and I am TOTALLY overwhelmed these days. Once next week is over, I'll be albe to breathe a little easier.
Thanks folks!
Nick
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