To All the Engineers:

[tpetplyr]

I'm a student at GaTech that wishes fervently I was good enough to be at a Conservatory. As it is I manage to practice about 2 hours a day, get lessons on and off depending on which trumpet professor at which other university has time in his busy scheudle to take me. I play princpal in our (large but lazy) orchestra. But after the Atlanta Trumpet Festival last weekend, I once more got to thinking how much further I have to (and want to) go, how much more practicing I want (and need) to do, and how many playing oppertunities I might be (unwillingly) sacrificing upon graduation.

I realized that upon securing a job in engineering (chemical, btw), I will be expected to work all day. When will I practice? My apartment complex surely wouldn't appreciate 6AM or 10PM, although those would be prime candidates if I work from 7 or 8 until 6 or 7. Could I practice at work during lunch? And what about lessons? I have yet to find a teacher who wants to teach in the late evenings or the weekends, but I'm at work otherwise.

So with a restricted practice schedule, and lessons fewer and further between than they already are, I hopefully will be able to maintain my ability, but I don't know if I'll improve. I seem to need more maitnence than most people. But more importantly, where will I play? A community band? Maybe even an orchestra? That would be my dream, having a community orchestra. A brass quintet of friends? Some gigs here and there? Just my living room?

I know I'll probably never win a full time orchestral position, even though that's all I truly want. But I don't want to stop trying, I don't want to stop performing, and I don't want to stop improving.

So what I ask (finally after all those questionmarks, a real question):

What's it like to be an Engineer in the real world, trying to play? How much are you sacrificing on a daily basis because of your job? How much and where do you perform in public? How much do and where do you practice? How often do you take lessons?

Thanks
Stuart
_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish!" -- Dolphins

[plp]

It pretty much comes down to priorities, and that is an individual thing. For me, I work about 60 hours a week, and 4 consecutive practice days is a victory. If you forego the boob tube, or learn to practice with it on, you can still get in a solid 3 hours a day in practice.

The simple fact is, trumpet playing may pale as as a priority as you get into the work world. Everything requires commitment to do well, and the emphasis may become the job, as that is what pays the bills. Some employers want clock punchers, and that is fine, as it will allow you the time for other interests and keeps their payroll down. Others routinely expect a project commitment, and figure that is why you are on salary. These require more time, and make it difficult to do ensemble work. I haven't played in a group since my comeback, other than with a few friends, kinda the equivelent of a pickup game.

The Trumpet as Therapy.

In the world of facts, figures, deadlines, calculations, problems, client demands, etc., in order to maintain balance in your life, you very much need a creative outlet. I have seen people reduce themselves to automatons, due to the fact the job totally consumed them. Been there myself, and you will need a pressure relief valve for your sanity. Music in general, and the trumpet in specific, is a great release.

[Wes Clarke]

You will wake up one morning and realize that soon, very soon, you will be 50 and that your trumpet aspirations got lost along the way. In my case, it was the first job and career (14 years), back to graduate school (5 years), and now the second career (11 years). In the middle of all that I found time to get married and start a family. The first career prevented that. No time for such things in that first career - which is why I left. Now the second career, the family, the house, etc. take most of my time.

What I have learned, however, is this: Making music and learning a new piece, if only for my own enjoyment, is worth the effort. Those things come slowly when you only have about 8 or 10 hours a week to play, but they do come. That's enough practice to see improvement. I try to play at lunch two or three days each week, 30 minutes every night, and an hour or more on Saturday and again on Sunday. Since I don't watch television and have all but given up golf, I can fit in the 8 or 10 hours each week and still give time to my family. I am having a tough time fitting the community band into the schedule because of my son's after-school activities, but maybe I'll have time for that in a few more years. I do have several opportunities to play at church each year.

My biggest problem right now is my six-year-old son telling me he wants to play saxophone. I keep asking myself where I went wrong. Of course, a month ago he wanted to play trombone, and before that it was horn. I love Chuck Daellenbach's joke about the French horn being "the most emotional of all instruments. Just looking at it can make you cry."

Sorry to ramble on so much.

[_dcstep]

I'm not an engineer, but I've been a Certified Public Accountant since 1970, working long hours at "Big Four" accounting/consulting firms and serving as a senior executive at a public financial services company. Along the way I had three daughters, was active in Indian Princesses, active in church, coached soccer and kept playing my trumpet. My wife an I celebrated 36 years of marriage last June.

My trumpeting has run the gamet from community bands, pit orchestras, community orchestras, brass bands and, lately, a funk/rock/soul band.

It's all about priorities. Sometimes I can't practice every day and sometimes it's just 15-minutes a day, but it all balances out. Last weekend I practiced an hour, played Charlier/Vivaldi duos with a friend for 2-hours and played three church services. Although I quit the funk/rock/soul band last summer when I moved, I'll be playing a wedding with them weekend after next, so I'm working on my G over high-C chops for that over the next week. You do what you need to do. You've got a solid foundation now, so don't lose it by totally giving up trumpet.

Make God, family and fun priorities in your life. If you do, you'll look back at the amazing number that you started with that fell by the wayside due to burnout, drug/alcohol abuse, divorce, etc. You need to make room in your life for a lot of things. When you marry, make room for the family and the wive's separate activities. You each need your own avocations. Also, you need avocations separate from your work relationships, etc., etc. etc.

These things only happen if you make it a priority to keep them in balance.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[elExtranjero]

Stuart,
I'm going to try to answer just your question and not 'lecture' I had a 8 paragraph lecture going, as I would with my son, and thought "No, Stuart asked a question, I should answer that rather than lecture!".

[elExtranjero]

Stuart,
Another thread has some interesting stuff of practice booths. With an engineering job, you'll be able to afford one of these puppies! As a working musician, you'll have trouble affording to eat

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42952
_________________
el Extranjero de la tierra extraña

[badocter]

[tpetplyr]

[swthiel]

Hmmmm ... tricky ...

By way of background, I stopped playing when I was working on my undergrad ChE degree ... I did the co-op thing and was seriously considering a double major (ChE/Math). I found my way back to playing off and on in grad school, but I understand completely the concerns you raise.

During my many truncated comebacks while living in apartments and townhouses, I did a lotta lotta playing using a Wispa Mute -- enough to get into shape for some hymn descants for Christmas and Easter, etc. It's really a crummy way to stay in shape.

You might be able to arrange something with a local school or church -- either on a rental basis or for an agreement to provide music once in a while. (That might work well if you're already churchgoing, if you're not the idea might not seem too attractive.) If you end up working near a university, you might be able to use the practice rooms there.

I never tried practicing at work when I was in industry; in general, I'd steer away from that for reasons of corporate politics. Plus, the reality of working in a manufacturing or engineering environment is that you often won't have the schedule flex that would let you get a few solid practice sessions in during normal working hours. When I was working in industry, I tried to play a little first thing in the morning (sleep schedule permitting) and to get a couple of sessions in during evenings.

I have no suggestions for how to find places to play, I'm looking forward to seeing what other advice you might get.

Regarding the degree, if you want to do research, you should seriously consider getting the doctorate. For engineering development work, an MS is often enough -- but the expectation is often that the research manager(s) will have a PhD. I got an MS on the way to my PhD, but there are plenty of people who stop with the MS even though they originally planned to get the PhD. The advantage to going straight for the PhD is that you won't run the risk of needing to change research areas and/or advisors and/or schools part way through grad school. PM me if you want to talk about this in more detail.

Just a parting thought -- learn from my mistake. It might be tough to find a way to keep playing, but DO NOT put the horn away. Find some way to keep it going, find someplace to play in public at least a few times a year.

Good luck,

Prof. Steve

Oh yeah -- I can vouch for the badocter's excellent engineering education!
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Steve Thiel

[badocter]

[Don Herman rev2]

Lot of questions...

Engineering is a job that frequently requires more than a 40-hour week. Like many other jobs. I'm an EE, not chemical, but it's probably the same. It doesn't preclude keeping your playing at a decently high level, thoug hit's tough to compete with the pros playing several hours a day. OTOH, I buy into the "focused practice" point of view. When I was playing pro I was putting in a lot of hours, but in some ways I'm a better musician now. Maximize your practice.

I practice over lunch in my truck for about 1/2 hour, and eat a brown-bag lunch. Saves me money by not eating out all the time, too. In the evenings I put in from zero to an hour, but frankly it's other activities (typically related to my two boys' activities) that sets the limit and not work. I had plenty of practice time before I had children, but the trade is usually worth it. Usually...

I have found plenty of teachers who give lessons well into the evening, at every level. Students of all ages have daytime activities, remember, and most teachers are accommodating students. For myself, my workplae is flexible enough that I can do a lesson a week and stay late or get in early to make up the time. Engineers are almost always salaried and exempt (from overtime) employees, and most workplaces aren't so rigid they won't let you have a little time for yourself as long as you keep your work up. I was taking lessons once a week for while, but now only infrequently. I've learned enough to help myself along, and circumstances forced me to cut back some, but I still get to my teacher now and then for a check up and because it's such a good time! I have one tomorrow, as a matter of fact.

You may find yourself with more time to play after graduation. As for places to play: churches (I play in a Praise Team, and now and then accompany the choir in our traditional service just to scare the sopranos ), community bands, community orchestras (I'm in one), small groups (there are some around but I haven't the time -- see above, usually due to a Scout meeting or some such, not work), jazz clubs, etc. There are wedding gigs and other freelance work you may be able to get into. Get in touch with the local symphony players where you end up -- great for lessons and contacts.

If you are "high maintenance" you should work out a good practice routine, spanning a week, that hits everything you need. You may alternate your focus on different days to balance your practice emphasis. A teacher can help with that, and I bet there are lots of TH folk who could help out as well.

Finally, I agree with Steve -- don't put the horn down! And, find a teacher you can meet with, even every once in a while, just for calibration and to help define and track your goals. Listening to some great playing helps keep me motivated (but not tooooo great -- Vizutti makes me want to just toss my horns out in the snow ).

Enjoy the music, for a lifetime! - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[Coltssop01]

[tpetplyr]

Thanks for the tips on grad school. I realize that trying to major in both is probably way too hard. Though we (granted a Technical School) have more than a couple Masters and Doctoral candidates playing in our orchestra, so I would at least pursue that.
I'm looking at the possiblity of both grad school for Music and PhD in ChE, though my advisor doesn't know about the music part yet.

I'm high maintenance at the level I want to play. I can hack my way around the horn on minimal practice, but I hate sounding like that, and it doesn't win (even community) auditions. I don't mind playing third so long as I'm playing at a high level. I played third at Emory Symphony spring semester and had a ball! I mind being relegated to third because I can barely get out of the staff....

Thanks for all the good advice! In some ways I feel much better, though I'm still slightly nervous. We'll see what happens.

Stuart
_________________
"So long, and thanks for all the fish!" -- Dolphins

[swthiel]

I knew I forgot something in my last post!

Re-read this paragraph:

[AverageJoe]

Stuart,

Penn State has a great engineering school and a great music school.

http://www.engr.psu.edu/

http://www.music.psu.edu/

Langston Fitzgerald is the teacher there (formerly with Baltimore Symphony), and I've heard some really nice things about how the program works as a double-major. Apparently, PSU is one of the premier places to go if you want to pursue science and music simultaneously -- you could almost say that they specialize in flexibility. It would be worth checking out for you.

Or you could just give in to the call like I did -- B.S. in IE from NCSU in '92, went back and did a MM in Trumpet ('99). My playing level was very close to yours when I went back to school, and I turned out OK -- I just bought a house. I didn't go straight to the MM though. I needed some chop development, so I started from the beginning -- undergrad first and then masters. The good news is that you will get credit for all of your general ed. courses as an undergrad (english, math, electives). You basically just take the music major core (about 70 hours).

This choice is not for everybody, but it can be done successfully. I have now come full circle... I'm still playing a bunch, but I have a day job in sales to pay the bills. The good news is that I lived my dream for awhile. When I look back, there are no "what ifs" staring back at me. Sure, there were plenty of mistakes made along the way, but the bottom line is that I went for it, and I can always go back to playing full-time if I want to.

See you Friday, and if you want to talk about all this, I'll be glad to buy you lunch and give you the good and the bad of my own experiences.

Paul Poovey
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..."

[Derek Reaban]

Stuart,

It seems that no one has mentioned that when you get your first job, there is not homework in the evenings! I know when I was in school, I was in classes most of the day (with ensembles as well), and then in the evenings (usually late into the evening) I was doing homework.

When I got my first job, I had every evening free! I started taking weekly lessons with a grad student at ASU and then moved on to lessons with a player in the Phoenix Symphony. When I was first out of school I lived in an apartment and I would spend almost every evening at the ASU school of music practicing (great for motivation with other terrific players in the rooms).

I found a community band that led to lots of contacts. Then I joined a brass band. In the brass band I was asked to participate in a newly forming brass quintet. Then I found a community orchestra that led to other contacts, a wind ensemble, and then one of the local symphonies. There was a point where I had an ensemble every night of the week!

I saved enough to get the trumpet that I had always wanted too!

As life has moved on, marriage, three kids, more responsibility at work, I am now forced to make more choices. I continue playing in the wind ensemble (16 seasons now), the Mesa Symphony (15 seasons), regular playing in Church, and have weekly lessons (as both of our schedules allow). Bedtime for my boys is 7 PM, so we have dinner and do homework or piano lessons and read stories every evening when I first get home. I practice in the evening after everyone else has gone to bed (usually 8:30-9 PM and 10:30 – Midnight). It works well since we have a floor plan with 3 of the bedrooms on the West side of the house and the 4th bedroom (my practice room) on the East side.

I am playing as well now as I did when I was playing every night of the week for many hours in ensembles and individual practice. By necessity I learned how to play much more efficiently (the writing that I have done on resonant sound). With about 2 hours per day I continue to make progress as a player. Certainly it’s not as fast as it would be if I had more time to play, but I play at a high level, and I play exactly what I want to play. I take the occasional freelance job (about 8-12 per year) if I know the musicians and can fit it into my schedule.

You can make playing an integral part of your life. My priorities are Church, Family, Job, and Trumpet. It takes hard word to get everything in balance, but it’s certainly worth the effort.

Best of luck to you!
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[badocter]