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Jacobs, Geyer, and syllables for singing



 
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gregtrum84
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:35 pm    Post subject: Jacobs, Geyer, and syllables for singing Reply with quote

Hi there,

I've had lessons from students of Jacobs, Chicowitz, and Charles Geyer, and I've had the students of Geyer say that when singing a melody while learning it one should use a raw, nasal sound (Eureee) to keep a smaller mouth position, thereby making things easier, closer together, etc. On the other hand, it seems like many of Jacob's students tend to sing with an open, AWW vowel. My question is, do you think that using a more nasal vowel is helpful, or conversly, is using an open vowel such as an opera singer would use detrimental? Does it matter?

I hope I've been clear.

Thanks!

Greg
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jfmaulding
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Jacobs, Geyer, and syllables for singing Reply with quote

My question is, do you think that using a more nasal vowel is helpful, or conversly, is using an open vowel such as an opera singer would use detrimental? Does it matter?


I am kind of old...but I studied at Northwestern many years ago and the reasons for the singing (as an opera singer) were as follows:

1. To open your throat.
2. To practice producing and maintaining maximum air flow.
3. To produce an "image" in your mind of how you wanted your instrument to sound.

We never used a nasal vowel...unless this would be the sound you wanted to place into your mind.

John Maulding
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher avoids "nasal" vowels, by and large... "Hoo" sounds, open throat, lack of tension, etc. As always, it really comes down to the sound you're trying to achieve, and (for teaching) what sound will drive the development you want. I can think of cases where a nasal sound might help develop certain embouchure aspects, but that's a matter best left to teachers... - Don
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MNitchie
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xx

Last edited by MNitchie on Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gregtrum84
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

makes sense to me. Thanks guys!

G
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dkruziki
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just wondering if you guys think that you can sing with a nasal sound as Geyer was doing and still have an open throat a la operatic singing?
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Martromba
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arban is very clear in his method that the articulation and vowel should be TU. I have been through chop problems and have seen many professionals recently admit to having problems also. From my experience, tongue position is the primary problem. The tongue is the regulator of the air: i.e. the heighth of the tongue. Low brass players seem to use a vowel that is on the lower side, AHH or OHH. This does not work for trumpet players. the higher tongue placement (U vowel) is necessary to keep the air pressure and volume relatively equal to the pressure from the horn on the embouchure. If the tongue is too low, the volume increases but the velocity drops and throws out of balance the pressure on the embouchure. The converse is also not ideal, raising the tongue level ( ee or i), because the velocity is greater and the volume is to little. At some point, the muscles of the embouchure will just shut down. This is what happened to me. It was not until I was able to stabilize the vowel created by the level of the tongue that my playing came back. It is a daily vigilance for me now to make sure I keep the vowel the same every day that I play.

Like in language, it takes vowels and consonants to make your speech understandable. The same is true in trumpet playing. Without exaggerated consonants(Kathy Battle, etc), the message of your playing is not always understandable. Bud was the master of consonants both at the beginning of the notes and at the ends of notes.

Check out the Arban book again. In my opinion, Arban is still model that trumpet players should use: U vowel. Add to that good consonants and your musical communication should be much clearer and understandable.

Mark Ridenour
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

Hope this isn't a frivolous question. Whey you say "TU" does the U sound like the U in "you" or like the U in "bathtub"? I'd always assumed it was like "too" or "two".

A second question about "TU", I've heard some teachers say that since Arban was French that the TU would have had a kind of "th" sound. Maybe like "Thursday" rather than the harder sound in "that". What are your thoughts on this?

Regards,
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SinfonianTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

I was watching golf the other day and saw you on TV playing excerpts....i was like "wow, golf has finally gotten interesting".

Keep being a badass man,
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Martromba
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In response to MrOlds question, I have found that U as in "you" is correct. Not the U as in "bathtub". As to your second question, a "th" type of consonant is not found in my articulation palette nor do I believe it is implied with Arban. In fact, based on my rudimentary knowledge of the French language, TU is pronounced with just a hint of EE sound before the U.

For those of you who are golf enthusiasts, the golf swing is a perfect visualization of what happens inside the body(air intake - backswing; set the tongue behind the teeth to build up pressure - swing toward the ball; tongue releases the air(articulation) TU - club impacts the golf ball.

Happy practicing!
MR
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grooveduke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNitchie wrote:
Furthermore, the shape of your mouth when you are singing is completely different from when you are playing the trumpet.


Great point. As I understand it, the point of singing is not necessarily to simulate oral position on the trumpet, but to take your mind away from that and into the realm of sound.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got it! - Don
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mpc
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a French American and the French "U" sound is very particular. The sound doesn't really exist in American English, a French "Tu" somewhat resembles the way a British person might say "Two". While I can't x-ray my mouth, pronouncing the French "tu" requires more of my toungue muscles than that of the US "too".

Question for Mark about the vowels. How do you interpret Maggio (and others, I imagine) that suggest a different vowel for different registers?
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maggio (and others) suggest vowel sounds which arch the tongue, and tense the lips, in the upper register. That's different than the "tyou"-ish articulation (for attacks/tonguing) being discussed.

HTH - Don
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tptmed
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes good teachers will suggest something odd (like a nasal vowel) to help a very specific problem for a specific player. I know when I studied with Jake, the "OH" position up to high C was difficult for me to grasp. Vince Penzerella told me to picture the "OH" like the three balls of a snowman. The bottom (big OH) for lows, the middle for mid register, and the small "OH" for high notes-still an "OH" profile, but as it is smaller it makes it easier to acheive your upper register.

It is important to remember that any physical movements we are talking about here are perhaps millimeters and we can't REALLY control them. Sometimes times we need a visualization (nasal sound, warm air, whatever)
to get us to that "spot" where the sound resides for each of us.
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Martromba
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Years ago, I totally blew my chops out by experimenting with lower tongue placement(ooh). Before that experiment, I could play in any register with ease. Once I realized what I had done, it took years for me to re-train my tongue to stay in the same position in every register. I believe that is what Arban intended.

I now warm up everyday concentrating on tongue placement (TU) just to reinforce the good habit. I have found that I can play in every register with the same tongue(TU) and use only the embouchure to change the pitch. I find this to be the most simple and economical way to play. If we use the golf swing analogy again, the swing that is the most repeatable is the one that is the simplest and economical.

For those of you that find yourself skeptical of this approach, I played every piece, save for the 3 weeks a year that I was rotated off, for almost 2 1/2 years at the CSO. I never in my life felt as good playing nor felt any physical distractions from what I wanted to do. This approach really works. I have bought into what Arban has said for 150 years and it works for me.
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tptmed
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martromba said:
Quote:
[I have bought into what Arban has said for 150 years and it works for me.]
I think Mark is absolutely right. It's not by accident that the Arban book is still around. The exercises are specifically set up to make you play well and EASY. If you can't do them, it's exposing a weakness in your playing. The only "basics" that Arban really doesn't cover are range and transposition. However I am sure that if you were a student in France at that time, transposition was just a given, and range could be developed by playing all the exercises higher.

I have found that when I have a student who really starts playing well, they usually have a setback that they don't understand. Usually (because they now can) they start playing harder repertoire and to varying degrees abandon basics. I invariably take them back to the first 40 or so pages of the Arban and focus on tone, resonance, relaxed air, etc. It never fails to work. In a few days they are "back in the saddle again." I try to play twenty minutes or so of Arban, once or twice a week. If I have a heavy rotary schedule coming up, it's on rotary. Same for Bb, Eb, cornet, whatever.
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Martromba
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always done some work in Arban's everyday for my whole career. I would play some single, triple, then double tongue exercises because I felt I needed to address that aspect of my playing everyday because it was the weakest. In the last couple of years, I have also added a page of arpeggios to my daily workout to help with being flexible in each range without resetting the mouthpiece, which had at one point been a bad habit I had slipped into.
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LaFata
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:51 pm    Post subject: Warm thick air Reply with quote

pretend you have a hot egg in your mouth

wind and song!!
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tptmed
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scrambled, poached, or fried?
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