Newer Bach Strad redrot

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
A friend of mine with a newer Bach Strad, showed me his horn a few months ago that had some odd silver imperfections on his leadpipe. He had the horn chem cleaned a week ago, and the imperfections were redrot. You can see the rough, sandpaper like surface when you look down the inside of the pipe. Serial is in the 774x,xxx range. The horn is a 37, reverse leadpipe horn that he bought new. His older 40 plus year old Bach, does not have that problem, so I know that it is not just his chemistry. Anybody else have this problem in their similar age horn???
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[Rhondo]

Mine is 739XXX, said to be a 2017 model that had the leadpipe replaced because of red rot before I got it in 2021. I don’t know how serious it was- possible it was just cost effective to replace the leadpipe before sale.

Bought it from Clay at centexbrass who is pretty good about describing condition and history of the horns he sells. This was a standard configuration 37 he had converted to reverse leadpipe in the process. If I recall the previous owner was a high school student but not sure that was a cause of anything.

Bachs of recent years have had some quality control issues; I haven’t heard of red rot being common.

[Irving]

On a silver leadpipe, you would see bubbling on the outside. On the inside, there would be craters, that will correspond with the bubbling on the outside. Sandpaper? I haven't heard of that.

Red rot is caused by not drying the leadpipe after playing. Some people will cause red rot, others won't. Maybe the person that didn't have red rot on an older horn but got it on a newer horn, developed a different body chemistry, or ate foods that he didn't eat before. You need to dry the leadpipe and tuning crook after playing.

[abontrumpet]

I bought an unplayed 707xxx that began to develop red rot in 6months of playing. Just for the stats.

[Irving]

I rotted out a Bach leadpipe in a year. That's when I started using a swab.

[zaferis]

I had read/heard, I can't remember where nor can I verify it's accuracy, that Bach had an issue with a batch of leadpipes on some new Bb's.
I found this after my 2014-ish trumpet started showing signs of red rot on the leadpipe. I haven't had this issue with other trumpets, so I can dismiss my body chemistry.. And it's only in the leadpipe, no where else on the trumpet.

A note, I am prepared to replace the leadpipe if and when the pipe loses functionality - but so far it's just a little cosmetic problem - This is my everyday trumpet-I play a lot. 10 years and still going strong
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[abontrumpet]

[Brent]

Maintenance will help, but sometimes I think it's bad luck.

Someone told me manufacturer's can simply get a bad batch of brass, which is going to lead to problems like red rot. Way back in the early 90's, a sales rep said there was a period where Yamaha had a huge issue with red rot. I think Bach and Kanstul had similar episodes.
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Brent

[yourbrass]

[Manuel de los Campos]

[OldSchoolEuph]

There is a tendency to label a wide variety of issues as "red rot". As @yourbrass has noted with the excellent description of red rot, the OP's description does not match rot, but rather corrosion build-up inside, and there is too little info to speculate regarding the plating. (No craters inside and no pinhole centers to the exterior splotches = not red rot)

Similarly whenever someone, as @abontrumpet stated, notes "all over the horn", which implies exterior assessment, this is almost always acid staining from the environment in which the horn is kept (case materials can do this), or if plated, poor pre-plating prep. Red rot concentrates where the acidic contaminants do - in the leadpipe and tuning slide crook. Even dispersion is inconsistent with the mechanism of red rot.

As @zaferis noted, sometimes the brass itself can be contaminated by the supplier, or in handling, and can lead to issues with poor plating adhesion, accelerated corrosion, and even red rot (though rot far less often than the others). It does happen, but poor care, such as one sees with a teenager, as I believe Clay detailed being the case with the horn @Rhondo mentions is still the leading cause of rot.

And, of course, I have to mention - though I believe the OP indicates a timing after the damage was noted - improper chem cleans can also cause loss of zinc just as excess time in an ultrasonic can exploit any pre-existing. Cleaning has to be done carefully by a skilled tech.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Rhondo]

Fwiw, Clay didn’t know the cause of the previous red rot in the horn I bought, and mentioned it could have been body chemistry.

[trumpetera]

I find it interesting to note that all my swedish type Eb and Bb cornets I play in period brass ensembles are more than 100 years old, they have all lived a LONG life with many different players of different generations. None had been "swabbed" or ultrasonically cleaned. Ever.

NONE of them have this problem. Ore have had, all parts are original to the instruments.

It leads me to think it has to do with the alloy, and maybe the fact that the brass used today is of lesser quality. Or that the "Skultuna-mässing" (brass made in the brass works of Skultuna, Sweden) was of the very excellent quality they advertised in the 1800's...

FWIW, my 1980 Bach stead I got for christmas as a 10 year old, and still uses every day in my work have no red rot whatsoever. In a few years time, I will have to patch the lead pipe, but that's because I'm wearing it through from the outside...
_________________
Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural

[yourbrass]

[LittleRusty]

[trumpetera]

[Ronnman]

Could it be a difference in (lower) lead content of the brass?
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

[yourbrass]

[OldSchoolEuph]

[J. Landress Brass]

Red rod is more common now because of chemicals used in factories in the production process of the instruments. Things like pickles to remove soft solder or braze can make the metal more prone to dezincification (red rot). The reason you do not see it in 100+ years old instruments is generally from the use of different chemicals and more hand work to remove such buildups. If you ever take apart a 120+ year old instrument you will often find file marks and other imperfection in the mental under the braces and solder joints. This is becasue the instrument were assembled rough and then cleaned up by hand.
_________________
Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com