One of the things I noticed is how he starts warming up in the early part of the talk, but for a relatively brief time compared to the amount of time he's talking (and therefore resting)… As a result, as a comeback player myself, I've begun my practice sessions very slowly, with way more rest time than playing at the outset.
Rhondo, thanks for this, I'll definitely watch and take some notes! _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Everyone, thanks to all for the insightful and useful comments and suggestions. I appreciate all the engagement and the fact that the people on this forum are willing to contribute their help and experience to an old hacker like myself who is picking up the horn again.
I'm old enough that I realize that what works for one person may not work for me, so I don't just automatically take all suggestions as gospel. I'll listen to everyone though because I know that the assembled wisdom here far exceeds my playing experience and expertise. Taking a 30+ year break in the middle (life happens, as we all know) does tend to slow down bringing chops back
I listen, learn, try things, discard what doesn't work for me, add what does.
That's the benefit of being old enough to know better, but young enough to not care!
Thanks again! _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
If that is your only response to my lengthy post, I don't think we are going to have a productive discussion as I do not believe this line of questioning will move it forward for the OP. Have a good one!
You started your post talking about a 10 yo - it isn't clear where this even comes from - rhatheway indicated he's (?) coming back from a 30 year layoff. Your lengthy post appears to be predicated on something that isn't part of the equation. If you can't explain yourself or even just say "I misread a point of the OP's post, nevermind" - nope, nothing productive is going to take place.
Dismiss it all you want, the issues he indicates he's having are like issues I've had that didn't improve until I became conscious of points I referred to - that's a fact. Everything I bring up are points I wish I *had* been conscious of much sooner. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
(1) You started your post talking about a 10 yo . . .
(2) Dismiss it all you want . . . (3) Everything I bring up are points . . .
(1) Thank you for clarifying your question. I am aware he is not a 10 year old as he wrote in in his second post in this thread (and he mentioned it in his most previous thread that I contributed to). This sentence was to illustrate that most beginners begin without severe analysis and quite often end up playing better than many on this forum after a few short years. I was nullifying the NECESSITY for analysis at early stages (whether that be a comeback or a complete beginner), which was clearly evident from the rest of my post.
(2) If you had finished reading my post, I also offered an analytical solution to his stated problem.
(3) I offered a reason why you "wish you had been conscious of" those points you brought up as well. Great that it worked for you, but there are significantly better ways to approach analysis than compiling an exhaustive micro-minutiae compendium. I also addressed this in my post.
I feel like I just had to repeat all of my points here, which is why I alluded to an unproductive discussion. I think my previous post was clear enough to answer all the points of clarification I made here.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3333 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:16 am Post subject:
abontrumpet wrote:
Look, no 10 year old starting trumpet thinks about this stuff and can achieve great results relatively quickly. Yes, there is a degree of luck involved with a beginner with no instruction but this is severe overkill especially if you don't know what "correct" is (like Doug Elliott mentions). All you're doing is analyzing "what is" and you have no idea "what should be." That's where the "poo poo" comes in, not the analysis itself.
...
Before you go down the analysis route you should make sure your brass habits are good to go: ...
-----------------------------------------
I think those 2 points are important. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
there are significantly better ways to approach analysis than compiling an exhaustive micro-minutiae compendium.
You say that as if it's an immutable, universal fact. I had teachers who talked like you - they were useless in helping me. What ultimately did help was exactly what I outlined - focusing on being aware of the various elements of what's going on.
Quote:
Before you go down the analysis route you should make sure your brass habits are good to go: breathing comfortably and repeatably, achieving good sounds, know what good playing sounds like, recording and listening back often.
He said in his first post that he's having trouble achieving good sound. Presumably the fact that he recognizes that he has this problem means he recognizes what good sound is and that he's not achieving it.
The reason he's having this problem is because of an issue with the mechanics of his playing - part of the mechanics of playing is breathing and air, it's not the whole picture. If other parts of his playing are screwed up breathing isn't going to fix it. Playing is and will always be without exception the combination of parts of a whole. You're suggesting he get to the root of his problem without an awareness of the mechanics. This strikes me as flawed methodology. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Hello
This Post reminds me of one of the themes of Hard Times by Dickens - is Education devoting too much time to facts and information (For Mr Gradgrind read Robert P ) or should there be more focus on Play and Imagination (AbonTrumpet)
Btw Rhondo thanks for your Post - the video was great "Anything you can do to put singing into the Trumpet" from Doc Severinsen.
Since Mathematics came into the debate I wondered if we should leave the last word with Charles Dickens from Hard Times:
Quote:
“The last trumpet ever to be sounded shall blow even algebra to wreck.”
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1859 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:04 am Post subject:
I've never taken off playing 30 years, but I've taken off 2-5 years a few times. You might want to think of the time needed to "come back" in years rather than months.
Just a guess, based on my own comebacks - your bad days may be caused by swollen lips. The easiest thing to do is just take a day off once a week - really - nothing bad will happen. There are many non-playing things you could do - listen to recordings of pieces you are playing, do interval ear training, P.E.T.E. resistance training, etc. Re-organize your practice so that you are covering everything in a week, but not everything every day.
If you are determined to play 7 days a week and nothing else helps, then consider making a mouthpiece change to something that will allow you a bit more room in the cup. Mouthpieces to consider - the plain Bach 3C, a Yamaha Shew Jazz, Stork 4 E or 4D, or a Warburton 4M with perhaps a Warburton 6 backbore.
PURVIANCE 4*K4 vs. WARBURTON 4M (PRE-FIRE)
Technique comes back far quicker than the muscle sets needed to play for a couple of hours and to play easily above the staff. So while you have the technique needed to play 1st parts, please consider staying on 2nd and 3rd band parts for another year. Good players are needed on all the parts.
Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 62 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:43 am Post subject:
When I have a bad practice session it's more likely due to a failure to focus than some physical issue. So if practice is not going well I'll move to simpler stuff, if that doesn't work then I stop and walk away. The next day is always better.
Some other practice habits that work for me are that I will practice for ~20 minutes and then take ~10 minutes off, rinse, and repeat. This seems to keep my chops fresher. I take one day a week off from practice, this provides some additional recovery time. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 180S37
Getzen Custom Series 3895
_______________________________________
I play trumpet because I like it, not because I'm good at it.
I've never taken off playing 30 years, but I've taken off 2-5 years a few times. You might want to think of the time needed to "come back" in years rather than months.
Just a guess, based on my own comebacks - your bad days may be caused by swollen lips. The easiest thing to do is just take a day off once a week - really - nothing bad will happen. There are many non-playing things you could do - listen to recordings of pieces you are playing, do interval ear training, P.E.T.E. resistance training, etc. Re-organize your practice so that you are covering everything in a week, but not everything every day.
If you are determined to play 7 days a week and nothing else helps, then consider making a mouthpiece change to something that will allow you a bit more room in the cup. Mouthpieces to consider - the plain Bach 3C, a Yamaha Shew Jazz, Stork 4 E or 4D, or a Warburton 4M with perhaps a Warburton 6 backbore.
PURVIANCE 4*K4 vs. WARBURTON 4M (PRE-FIRE)
Technique comes back far quicker than the muscle sets needed to play for a couple of hours and to play easily above the staff. So while you have the technique needed to play 1st parts, please consider staying on 2nd and 3rd band parts for another year. Good players are needed on all the parts.
Take a longer view.
Andy, you raise some very good points. I'm starting to take a break and not play every day, so I'll see what happens there. And yes, I'm sure I'm probably pushing a bit too hard (in my mind I'm still the 18 year old lead trumpet player), so recognizing that fact also comes into play.
I just picked up a Bach 3C and like the feel of it. It's similar to my Purviance 4*K4 with a slightly bigger cup and the rim is just a bit wider. But I've realized that the smaller rim works better for me, so any suggestions on something like a Bach 3C with a slightly smaller rim?
And yes, I play primarily 2nd parts and will for a while, I'm sure, but still want to continue to push myself on a few 1st parts as well. _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
When I have a bad practice session it's more likely due to a failure to focus than some physical issue. So if practice is not going well I'll move to simpler stuff, if that doesn't work then I stop and walk away. The next day is always better.
Some other practice habits that work for me are that I will practice for ~20 minutes and then take ~10 minutes off, rinse, and repeat. This seems to keep my chops fresher. I take one day a week off from practice, this provides some additional recovery time.
I believe there's a lot of wisdom in what you say there, Capt Pat. _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1859 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:34 am Post subject:
rhatheway wrote:
I just picked up a Bach 3C and like the feel of it. It's similar to my Purviance 4*K4 with a slightly bigger cup and the rim is just a bit wider. But I've realized that the smaller rim works better for me, so any suggestions on something like a Bach 3C with a slightly smaller rim?
Something like a 3C rim and cup but smaller?
Nothing inexpensive except maybe the Kelly 3C for $27. I've found Kelly mouthpieces to be on the small side. If you can stand a plastic rim, they might work. In my experience they really need a mouthpiece weight. Doesn't have to be fancy, a bronze bushing from the hardware store works just fine. If the size is correct, they offer it in two piece stainless steel for $156.
After that, Pickett offers a "4" rim size .655 ID in a variety of cup depths and different backbore sizes. starting at $150 for a one-piece. I guess that would be a good deal since your Purviance is selling for $255.
In my comeback from 30 years I tried 4 other mouthpieces after initially playing on the one I used before. For me that turned out to be a distraction, but I did find out any issues I was having had nothing to do with my original mouthpiece.
I also had doubts about my (new to me) Bach trumpet, having long ago sold my previous one. After ironing out a minor mechanical quirk it had, and sticking with it, I realized any issues with playing had nothing to do with the horn either.
As Doc says in that video, (paraphrasing)- there’s no magic bullet or easy way out, it just takes a lot of time and hard work. Some of the greatest trumpet players say they have bad days. Doc’s playing isn’t a style I particularly like, but I certainly have respect for his abilities, and if he struggles, that says something about the instrument.
In the end you have to figure it out for yourself, maybe along with a teacher you trust.
Nothing inexpensive except maybe the Kelly 3C for $27. I've found Kelly mouthpieces to be on the small side. If you can stand a plastic rim, they might work. In my experience they really need a mouthpiece weight. Doesn't have to be fancy, a bronze bushing from the hardware store works just fine. If the size is correct, they offer it in two piece stainless steel for $156.
After that, Pickett offers a "4" rim size .655 ID in a variety of cup depths and different backbore sizes. starting at $150 for a one-piece. I guess that would be a good deal since your Purviance is selling for $255.
More like a Bach 3C cup but with a slightly narrower rim (the profile of it feels just a little too rounded for it to fit comfortably; the Purviance is just a tiny bit flatter). And yes, they real vintage Purviance mps are very expensive apparently; I'm glad I still kept my old one. I'm not familiar with Pickett mps so I'll need to look those up.
And no, a platic mouthpiece just wouldn't feel right. _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
In my comeback from 30 years I tried 4 other mouthpieces after initially playing on the one I used before. For me that turned out to be a distraction, but I did find out any issues I was having had nothing to do with my original mouthpiece.
I also had doubts about my (new to me) Bach trumpet, having long ago sold my previous one. After ironing out a minor mechanical quirk it had, and sticking with it, I realized any issues with playing had nothing to do with the horn either.
As Doc says in that video, (paraphrasing)- there’s no magic bullet or easy way out, it just takes a lot of time and hard work. Some of the greatest trumpet players say they have bad days. Doc’s playing isn’t a style I particularly like, but I certainly have respect for his abilities, and if he struggles, that says something about the instrument.
In the end you have to figure it out for yourself, maybe along with a teacher you trust.
Yup, that seems to be the case. For me, I've pretty much narrowed it down to my Purviance 4*K4 mp and the Bach 3C. The only thing I don't like about the 3C is the rim is a bit rounded. Is it possible to sand it down a bit?
Like everything worthwhile in life, nothing comes easy, you have to put in the work, which I don't have a problem doing. I ask questions because I want to learn and I want to make sure I'm maximizing my practice time/technique to get the best possible results. _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
(1) You say that as if it's an immutable, universal fact. I had teachers who talked like you - they were useless in helping me. What ultimately did help was exactly what I outlined - focusing on being aware of the various elements of what's going on.
(2) He said in his first post that he's having trouble achieving good sound. Presumably the fact that he recognizes that he has this problem means he recognizes what good sound is and that he's not achieving it.
(3) The reason he's having this problem is because of an issue with the mechanics of his playing - part of the mechanics of playing is breathing and air, it's not the whole picture. If other parts of his playing are screwed up breathing isn't going to fix it. Playing is and will always be without exception the combination of parts of a whole. You're suggesting he get to the root of his problem without an awareness of the mechanics. This strikes me as flawed methodology.
Sorry to be slow to respond, I missed this post. Sorry to the OP, I warned this wouldn't be productive.
I literally think you're not reading what I'm writing.
(1) Do go back and read what I wrote. I did not say that analysis is bad. Please tell me how you think I talk like the "teachers who talked like you." Because right now I'm seeing a vast difference in how you think I'm talking and how I'm actually talking.
(2) Incorrect. He said: "sometimes when I go to practice that the practice session just doesn't work. By that I mean that my chops don't seem to want to focus, I can't clearly hit notes (even ones in the staff) and my upper register is just not there. This seems to happen about once a week." This is saying "I achieve what I want to achieve 6 times out of 7, what's going on that one time." I offered a very plausible, analytical, solution
(3) Correct, that is the solution that I offered: a mechanical/analytical solution to his stated problem (please please, think for a moment what it requires for one to "put the mouthpiece in the right spot" and think of the list of micro-minutiae you could come up with and then come up with simpler cues and tips -- if you cannot, you are lacking effective teaching methods). I ADDED to also make sure your brass habits are in order because if you don't have the basic ingredients you need for good brass playing, you're not going anywhere. Pros check their BASIC fundamentals everyday. I do not see how that is flawed methodology. I NEVER suggested a lack of awareness of mechanics (I have suggested elsewhere that you limit it no more than 30% of a session), it is explicitly stated that it is fine, but the way you structure awareness and analysis is VERY important. I disagree with YOUR methodology, not the concepts of awareness and analysis.
Again, we are going in circles. You are disagreeing with things that I have not written and do not believe and I DO think I'm being very clear.
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1859 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:23 pm Post subject:
rhatheway wrote:
More like a Bach 3C cup but with a slightly narrower rim (the profile of it feels just a little too rounded for it to fit comfortably; the Purviance is just a tiny bit flatter).
By "narrower" do you mean the inside diameter of the rim or the thickness of the rim?
Assuming you mean, inside diameter, the only thing that comes to mind in the 3C style but flatter rim would be the Warburtons.
If you want to try Warburton tops, search the Trumpet Herald Market place for a few weeks - they frequently show up used at about 1/2 price. You might need to buy a new backbore. Warburton #5,5*, 6 and 6* would probably work for you with the M cup. Maybe a a more open 7 with the MC cup. ( Doug makes a Purviance style backbore that I think is pretty nice )
https://www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com/backbores.html
There are Bach 3Cs and then there are Bach 3Cs - depending on the year they can have different inside diameters.
Yes - you can have a rim modified to be flatter - might work but you then have a custom mouthpiece that would be hard to sell if it does not work out. You would have the cost of the donor mouthpiece, shipping both ways and another $50. You could also have a custom top made based on your mouthpiece.
Far better to find a stock mouthpiece that meets your needs - even if it is expensive.
Again, consider modifying your practice routine first.
Changing mouthpiece rims adds an unknown variable to your practice.
(1) You say that as if it's an immutable, universal fact. I had teachers who talked like you - they were useless in helping me. What ultimately did help was exactly what I outlined - focusing on being aware of the various elements of what's going on.
(2) He said in his first post that he's having trouble achieving good sound. Presumably the fact that he recognizes that he has this problem means he recognizes what good sound is and that he's not achieving it.
(3) The reason he's having this problem is because of an issue with the mechanics of his playing - part of the mechanics of playing is breathing and air, it's not the whole picture. If other parts of his playing are screwed up breathing isn't going to fix it. Playing is and will always be without exception the combination of parts of a whole. You're suggesting he get to the root of his problem without an awareness of the mechanics. This strikes me as flawed methodology.
Sorry to be slow to respond, I missed this post. Sorry to the OP, I warned this wouldn't be productive.
I literally think you're not reading what I'm writing.
(1) Do go back and read what I wrote. I did not say that analysis is bad. Please tell me how you think I talk like the "teachers who talked like you." Because right now I'm seeing a vast difference in how you think I'm talking and how I'm actually talking.
(2) Incorrect. He said: "sometimes when I go to practice that the practice session just doesn't work. By that I mean that my chops don't seem to want to focus, I can't clearly hit notes (even ones in the staff) and my upper register is just not there. This seems to happen about once a week." This is saying "I achieve what I want to achieve 6 times out of 7, what's going on that one time." I offered a very plausible, analytical, solution
(3) Correct, that is the solution that I offered: a mechanical/analytical solution to his stated problem (please please, think for a moment what it requires for one to "put the mouthpiece in the right spot" and think of the list of micro-minutiae you could come up with and then come up with simpler cues and tips -- if you cannot, you are lacking effective teaching methods). I ADDED to also make sure your brass habits are in order because if you don't have the basic ingredients you need for good brass playing, you're not going anywhere. Pros check their BASIC fundamentals everyday. I do not see how that is flawed methodology. I NEVER suggested a lack of awareness of mechanics (I have suggested elsewhere that you limit it no more than 30% of a session), it is explicitly stated that it is fine, but the way you structure awareness and analysis is VERY important. I disagree with YOUR methodology, not the concepts of awareness and analysis.
Again, we are going in circles. You are disagreeing with things that I have not written and do not believe and I DO think I'm being very clear.
There's no point in going into how exactly you remind me of teachers I had that didn't help me and the rest of it.
No hand-waving dismissals will change that what worked for me is doing exactly what I originally outlined - ergo, it's what I offer in the way of advice here and have suggested in numerous other threads and will continue to do so. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
There's no point in going into how exactly you remind me of teachers I had that didn't help me and the rest of it.
Totally fine! I understand the type of teacher you're talking about and yes, they are unhelpful.
Robert P wrote:
No hand-waving dismissals will change that what worked for me is doing exactly what I originally outlined - ergo, it's what I offer in the way of advice here and have suggested in numerous other threads and will continue to do so.
I'm not saying it didn't work for you. I am saying, for the beginner/comeback player (and for a number of more advanced players), it is simply too much information to hold in one's mind while they are figuring it out (again). Your "list" of things to pay attention to are all valid but, in my opinion, there are quite a number of tools/diagnostic exercises, to bypass the compilation of the compendium. Getting from point A to B on a plane instead of by foot. Once you're there, it's much more fruitful to compile.
All the best!
Last edited by abontrumpet on Thu Apr 11, 2024 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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