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huntman10
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Joined: 30 Aug 2017
Posts: 699
Location: Texas South Plains
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 Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:37 am Post subject: |
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My experience is the the older Director has no provision for a mobile third slide tuner (the third valve slide is at the end of the tube, and the "clean out slide, that extra crook below the valve set) has the same size tubing on both ends. The 18 A third slide separates at the middle of the slide so a finger ring can adjust the low D and C#, and clean out end tubes are shorter and cannot be swapped out. While I don't presently have one in my "stable", I do have parts in my bin. Also, as I recall, the 18a does not have a pull nib on the cleanout slide.
I may spend a little too much time obsessing about cornets..... Especially the ones from my beginner period.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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ConnArtist
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 2833
Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: |
ConnArtist, how do I determine if my Director is an 18A? I looked on the Conn Loyalist website and it appears a 1958 Director could be a 14A or 18A. From the serial number on mine (718xxx), it's a 1958 model, but on that website it also said that they have diagonal bracing, which mine does not, the braces are straight across.
Do I have the rare missing link? Or maybe just a horn made on a Friday afternoon just before quitting time?  |
They switched to the big bells for 1958 and 1959. Then changed the wrap and went to smaller bells after that. Many say it's bc they were losing money because players recognized the big bell directors sounded just as good as the Connstellations, and were going for the less expensive Directors. I believe them. Those Directors are one of the proverbial best kept secrets...
The diagonal braces were 1957 and earlier, and did not have the adjustable 3rd slide, as mentioned above. They also had smaller bells. Just two magical years for the Director cornets 
The 18A are the copper belled ones, the 14A are the brass bell. So whether you have copper or brass bell tells you which one you have. So... do tell! Is yours the 18A or 14A?
_________________
"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn  )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 141
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| huntman10 wrote: | | My experience is the the older Director has no provision for a mobile third slide tuner (the third valve slide is at the end of the tube, and the "clean out slide (that extra crook below the valve set) has the same size tubing on both ends. The 18 A third slide separates at the middle of the slide, and cleaning end tubes are shorter and cannot be swapped out. While I don't presently have one in my "stable", I do have parts in my bin. |
Huntman10, thanks for the info, but for me that actually adds more complication. My third valve has the tuning slide receiver so you can move it in and out (it looks like it came like that from the factory, but of course that could have been added by someone my parents bought the horn from and I'd never know that), which would seem to indicate it is not an 18A. But the third valve slide also splits roughly in the middle which would seem to indicate it's an 18A.
So again, it seems this horn has some of the "standard" features of what an 18A is defined as having, but also has some other things that most(?) 18A's don't have.
Is this cornet the missing link between two versions?
_________________
Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 141
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| ConnArtist wrote: | They switched to the big bells for 1958 and 1959. Then changed the wrap and went to smaller bells after that. Many say it's bc they were losing money because players recognized the big bell directors sounded just as good as the Connstellations, and were going for the less expensive Directors. I believe them. Those Directors are one of the proverbial best kept secrets...
The diagonal braces were 1957 and earlier, and did not have the adjustable 3rd slide, as mentioned above. They also had smaller bells. Just two magical years for the Director cornets
The 18A are the copper belled ones, the 14A are the brass bell. So whether you have copper or brass bell tells you which one you have. So... do tell! Is yours the 18A or 14A? |
ConnArtist, thanks, that helps clarify a lot of my questions!
Okay, copper vs brass bell. From a visual inspection it appears to be a brass bell (I don't see any underlying copper and it's definitely not a full copper bell), but is there anything specific I should look for that would clearly let me know? Otherwise, based on your notes, to me it seems to be a 14A.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
Last edited by rhatheway on Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:32 am; edited 2 times in total |
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ConnArtist
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 2833
Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: |
ConnArtist, thanks, that helps clarify a lot of my questions!
Okay, copper vs brass bell. From a visual inspection it appears to be a brass bell (I don't see any underlying copper and it's definitely not a full copper bell), but is there anything specific I should look for that would clearly let me know? Otherwise, based on your notes, to me it seems to be a 14A. |
You would definitely know if it's copper. That reddish orange bell is quite the contrast to the brass and nickel. No plating or "underlying copper"... it's a pure solid copper bell if you have one. Sounds like the 14A then.
Older models (pre-1957) have no third slide adjustability or finger ring, and the angle braces. The "newer" models after 1957 have straight post braces plus the finger ring for third slide tone adjustment
_________________
"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 141
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| ConnArtist wrote: | You would definitely know if it's copper. That reddish orange bell is quite the contrast to the brass and nickel. No plating or "underlying copper"... it's a pure solid copper bell if you have one. Sounds like the 14A then.
Older models (pre-1957) have no third slide adjustability or finger ring, and the angle braces. The "newer" models after 1957 have straight post braces plus the finger ring for third slide tone adjustment |
Cool, thanks to you (and everyone else on this forum) for helping identify which one it is!
So... it's a 1958 Conn 14A Director model cornet, with straight bracing, third valve adjustability, 5 1/8" brass bell. I know that when my parents bought it for me (when I was about 10 years old), they didn't think they were buying anything special, but now it sounds like it turned out to be just that!
One last question for the assembled wisdom here on this forum. Does the term "Coprion bell" refer to the manufacturing technique, the horns with the larger bell like mine, or does it refer to those horns made with a copper bell? I'm still not quite clear on that yet, so not sure if mine is also a Coprion horn.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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ConnArtist
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 2833
Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: |
One last question for the assembled wisdom here on this forum. Does the term "Coprion bell" refer to the manufacturing technique, the horns with the larger bell like mine, or does it refer to those horns made with a copper bell? I'm still not quite clear on that yet, so not sure if mine is also a Coprion horn. |
Coprion refers specifically to Conn's 100% copper bells and their technique to produce them. Rather than using sheet stock of copper (or brass in traditional trumpet), cut, soldered on the seem(s), and formed on a spinning mandrel/lathe, the Coprion bells were produced by electroplating soluble copper ion (hence the "Copr-ion") onto a mandrel, then bent and cut as needed.
Caveat: I'm no expert... just spouting off what I've read about them on the interwebs... so much thanks to ConnLoyalist and others!
_________________
"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 682
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:48 am Post subject: King 603 and Conn 18a cornet director |
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Deleted
_________________
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Yamaha 2330 Shepherds crook cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Bach 5 B long shank cornet mouthpiece ŕ
Last edited by jondrowjf@gmail.com on Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 682
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:26 am Post subject: Cornet comparsion |
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Two cornets I bought recently were the King 603 and the Conn 18a Director cornet. Also bought and sold Conn 27b Director trumpet.
My preference is for the King 603 over the Conn 18a Director.
Playing the same mouthpieces on both of the cornets. I find the projection, articulation, ease of play is better on the 603 cornet.
Both of these cornets are student cornets. As is the Yamaha 2300 shepherds crook cornet.
After a layoff if three years, when I get back to my desired level of playing, will buy a professional cornet.
_________________
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Yamaha 2330 Shepherds crook cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Bach 5 B long shank cornet mouthpiece ŕ |
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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 141
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Cornet comparsion |
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| jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote: | Two cornets I bought recently were the King 603 and the Conn 18a Director cornet. Also bought and sold Conn 27b Director trumpet.
My preference is for the King 603 over the Conn 18a Director.
Playing the same mouthpieces on both of the cornets. I find the projection, articulation, ease of play is better on the 603 cornet.
Both of these cornets are student cornets. As is the Yamaha 2300 shepherds crook cornet.
After a layoff if three years, when I get back to my desired level of playing, will buy a professional cornet. |
So your Conn is a Coprion copper bell? Mine is a 14A brass bell.
It's interesting that you said that though, because I feel somewhat the same. The Conn has a bit darker tone and takes effort more to play, while the King (and the Reynolds) both feel a bit easier to play. The Conn is also a bit heavier (so maybe it's made out of more brass or a thicker brass?). But on the positive side, the Conn seems to have a more mature sound (if that makes sense), so I've still got to play with them for a while to really decide which is the best choice for me and the music I play. I also haven't found all my old cornet mouthpieces yet (they're in a box somewhere), so just using the Bach 7C that came with it, which was never my favorite.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 682
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:28 pm Post subject: Conn 18A Director |
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This Conn 18 doesn't have a coprion bell. One of the first trumpets I owed was a Conn Director with a coprion bell. Loved the visual and had a nice smokey sound to it.
Yamaha 2330 shepherds crook cornet obviously was used and abused by students. The price of the cornet reflected the appearance of the cornet, Due to the appearance of the cornet decided to give it a raw brass finish.
The craftsmanship of the cornet is excellent. Valves.slides are in excellent shape.Do like the responsive of this cornet.
_________________
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Yamaha 2330 Shepherds crook cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Bach 5 B long shank cornet mouthpiece ŕ |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2024
Posts: 20
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: | | ... are the three cornets I listed in the original question (1958 Conn Director, 1976 Reynolds Medalist, 1963 King Tempo II 603) considered to be student instruments or are they pretty good horns? |
They are student / band instruments AND they are very good horns for entry.
Prices on eBay for KING, CONN, Holton entry-level models make it a no brainer to buy several and keep one or two, dispatch one or two. Learn a ton about the different plumbings, cleaning, oiling, even lite restoration. Make the local Salvation Army happy. Meet cool people on Craigs List.
They are so old and so cheap (I've yet to pay more than $170 and that was for an intermediate class Getzen trumpet in good condition; usually less than $115 delivered to my door), the game is to buy four, keep one or two that feel good and make you feel good playing. Mouthpiece will tilt sound to cornetatious or trumpetatious more than any one of these 1960 to today brands / student models.
This is the Dixie Cup Era for brass instruments. There is a glut on eBay, etc.
ALWAYS CLICK THE WATCH! Sellers will beat a path to your door to unload cornets.
Last edited by DAVIDTHEWRITER on Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 141
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote: |
They are student / band instruments AND they are very good horns for entry. They are not professional horns.
Prices on eBay for KING, CONN, Holton entry-level models make it a no brainer to buy several and keep one or two, dispatch one or two. Learn a ton about the different plumbings, cleaning, oiling, even lite restoration. Make the local Salvation Army happy. Meet cool people on Craigs List.
They are so old and so cheap (I've yet to pay more than $170 and that was for an intermediate class Getzen trumpet in good condition; usually less than $115 delivered to my door), the game is to buy four, keep one or two that feel good and make you feel good playing. Mouthpiece will tilt sound to cornetatious or trumpetatious more than any one of these 1960 to today brands / student models.
This is the Dixie Cup Era for brass instruments. There is a glut on eBay, etc.
ALWAYS CLICK THE WATCH! Sellers will beat a path to your door to unload cornets. |
Nope, never implied that they are professional horns, I just asked if they were good horns. But..., it turns out the Director had some features that were more standard on the higher grade horns than the student grade, which is why mine was only made for 2 years, as Conn realized they were cannibalizing their own sales of higher end horns because artists could buy the Director, get the sound they were looking for, and save some money.
In the end, that's what it comes down to, the sound. If what you, me, or anyone else hears is what they are looking for, it really doesn't matter whether the horn is considered to be a "student-grade" or "professional-grade" horn as long as the sound is "right" for that person.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
Last edited by rhatheway on Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 682
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:59 pm Post subject: Shopgoodwill |
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Started back playing in February. Bought two student cornets, two student trumpets from Shopgoodwill.com
There are some good deals, but sometimes the mouthpieces, slides are stuck.
Then I bought three cornets from ebay. One was a plastic pocket cornet, which I sold quickly. Since I wanted a shepherds crook cornet, bought two. Waiting on a Jupiter 520 M cornet and have a Yamaha 2300 model.
Very happy that I am getting a good sound from the cornets
_________________
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Yamaha 2330 Shepherds crook cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Bach 5 B long shank cornet mouthpiece ŕ |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 682
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Shopgoodwill |
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Duplicate
_________________
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Yamaha 2330 Shepherds crook cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Bach 5 B long shank cornet mouthpiece ŕ
Last edited by jondrowjf@gmail.com on Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2024
Posts: 20
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Shopgoodwill |
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| jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote: | Started back playing in February. Bought two student cornets, two student trumpets from Shopgoodwill.com
There are some good deals, but sometimes the mouthpieces, slides are stuck.
Then I bought three cornets from ebay. One was a plastic pocket cornet, which I sold quickly. Since I wanted a shepherds crook cornet, bought two. Waiting on a Jupiter 520 M cornet and have a Yamaha 2300 model.
Very happy that I am getting a good sound from the cornets |
I bet you end with two or more special keepers for every five you buy. Recoup by resale. Ends up neither too expensive nor short of adventures.
I bid per my confidence in being able to grade off photos. Seeing the horn "laid out" makes me more interested than no pictures or no comments specifically about everything moving. I'll take more risk on a laid out horn, all other things equal. |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2024
Posts: 20
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: |
... it turns out the Director had some features that were more standard on the higher grade horns than the student grade, which is why mine was only made for 2 years, as Conn realized they were cannibalizing their own sales of higher end horns because artists could buy the Director, get the sound they were looking for, and save some money.
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Way cool! |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 682
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Shopgoodwill |
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Started back playing in February. Bought two student cornets, two student trumpets from Shopgoodwill.com
Sold the trumpets and are selling the cornets.
There are some good deals, but sometimes the mouthpieces, slides are stuck.
Then I bought three cornets from ebay. As quickly as possible, sold the plastic pocket cornet. I am selling the other two American wrap cornets on ebay.
Since I wanted a shepherds crook cornet, bought two. Waiting on a Jupiter 520 M cornet. The Jupiter cornet was one of two instruments I regretted selling.
Decided to limit myself to Shephards Crook cornets.
Could someone recommend where I can buy a 3rd slide fixed finger ring for a Jupiter 520M cornet?
_________________
Jupiter 520 M shepherds crook cornet
Yamaha 2330 Shepherds crook cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B short shank mouthpiece
Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece
Bach 5 B long shank cornet mouthpiece ŕ |
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Dale Proctor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9376
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Cornets I’ve owned include a King Cleveland, Olds Ambassador, Reynolds Medalist, Conn 15A Director, Conn 17A Director, two Conn 76A Connquests, three Conn 5A Victors, a Conn 9A Victor, a Conn 80A Victor, a Besson Stratford, a Besson Chicago Bore, a Besson Nuevo Etoile, a Holton C201 Laureate, a J.W. Pepper, a Henry Lehnert, and a Bach Stradivarius 184G.
After my cornet & trumpet purge over the past few years, the keepers were the Bach Strad, the Conn 9A, the Besson Nuevo Etoile, and the Henry Lehnert. Two fairly modern great cornets to play, and two nice 19th century cornets to show people…
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2024
Posts: 20
Location: SoCal, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Shopgoodwill |
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| jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote: | Started back playing in February. Bought two student cornets, two student trumpets from Shopgoodwill.com
Sold the trumpets and are selling the cornets.
There are some good deals, but sometimes the mouthpieces, slides are stuck.
Then I bought three cornets from ebay. As quickly as possible, sold the plastic pocket cornet. I am selling the other two American wrap cornets on ebay.
Since I wanted a shepherds crook cornet, bought two. Waiting on a Jupiter 520 M cornet. The Jupiter cornet was one of two instruments I regretted selling.
Decided to limit myself to Shephards Crook cornets.
Could someone recommend where I can buy a 3rd slide fixed finger ring for a Jupiter 520M cornet? |
You are already a pro at "horn" trading. I'm probably bidding on your cornets. LOL |
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