Hypothetical question about mps

[rhatheway]

I've got a hypothetical question about mps.

If you have two mps with the same specs (throat, backbore, cup shape, cup depth, rim contour, etc.) made by two different manufacturers, why would there be any difference between them? Aren't all mps basically made out of the same material? Aren't the manufacturing techniques basically the same? Or would it come down to intangibles, like perceived value, preference of one brand over the other, etc?

The question for me is hypothetical because I'm not going to spend money to do any sort of comparison, and I'm not good enough that I could even tell that minute a difference, but I figure many of the professionals here on TH probably have done this and can help educate me.
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[etc-etc]

Differences in mouthpiece blanks (outer shape), inner shape and material.

[krell1960]

[Subtropical and Subpar]

If anyone has an older Monette mouthpiece and one of Kanstul's clones of said mouthpiece, that would probably be the best A-B test. At least as far as I know
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1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel

[Halflip]

[abontrumpet]

[Andy Cooper]

Let's assume you have two raw brass mouthpieces, made to exactly the same specifications of the same alloy brass by different makers. Identical in every measurable way.

You now need to buff the mouthpiece and silver or gold plate it. This can affect all of the other measurements - shank diameter, throat, rim "bite" etc.

I'm not aware of any makers that brag about making exact copies of other makers' current production mouthpieces - even Faxx. They usually say something like "based on ..." with their own improvements. Sometimes they base a model on averaged measurements - "a sample of the best Mt. Vernon 1Cs". They may use the same numbering system but their mouthpieces are different in some way.

So the Schilke 17, Yamaha 17B4, Yamaha Hooten, Yamaha Gould are all very similar to the Bach 1.25 C - but all have subtle intentional variations.

Use the specifications as a guide to reduce the number of mouthpieces you need to try in order to find a good fit for you.

[JayKosta]

There can be quite a difference between 'advertised specs' and actual measurement of the final product.

And the material (typically brass) might be a different alloy, or quality (how well the copper, zinc, etc. have been refined, mixed, rolled, etc.), the differences in heat treatment - before and after machining.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[rhatheway]

OK, so there are actually quite a few differences than just the measurable specs then.

To quote Mr. Spock, "Fascinating." 🖖
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[mograph]

A good A/B test might be the Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz vs. the Yamaha 14B4, as they seem to have identical profiles. Luckily, the Jazz doesn't come at a premium price, if I recall.

https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html?mpc1id=VA014200&mpc2id=VB013800&backcolor=blue
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1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music

[trickg]

[rhatheway]

[spitvalve]

I had two Bach 1 1/4C mouthpieces that were absolutely identical in dimensions. One played beautifully and one sucked swamp water. I can only surmise they were made at different times with different alloys in the blanks.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

[huntman10]

Welcome to the first meeting of the new Mouthpiece Madness Mitigation Mob (Quad M). My name is John, and I have Mouthpiece Madness. I am introducing Richard H who has recently asked a question, that to members of MMMM, is as important as “What is the Meaning of Life?” He asks, “If you have two mps with the same specs (throat, backbore, cup shape, cup depth, rim contour, etc.) made by two different manufacturers, why would there be any difference between them? Aren't all mps basically made out of the same material? Aren't the manufacturing techniques basically the same? Or would it come down to intangibles, like perceived value, preference of one brand over the other, etc? “

My story is a common one, albeit a little out of the “normal” acquisitions from 64 years on the “Mouthpiece Safari”. I remember being a young eager cornet player, visiting Earl Ray Music, since my Olds 3 had suffered after a couple of years bouncing off of various surfaces, getting pulled with pliers (I did live on a farm, my dad’s favorite tool was his blacksmith’s hammer), and there was an actual Bach 7C in a new box. I think it was around 5 bucks. I just knew I would get first chair with that, but after we moved into town, my director thought I would do better with a baritone. After a semester or so with me taking the baritone every day banging against my bicycle home welded frame, he decided I would do better on cornet after all. Anyway, the next time we went to the “big city”, my folks let me go back to Earl Ray, and his son, Bob, showed me all the wonders in the counter, then leaned over and mentioned they had a “special” drawer of mouthpieces that had only been “tried out” for about a buck each! WOW! I was hooked for LIFE.

I did eventually move up in the section (mainly, the other guys seemed to have found other interests, and I was, if not talented, persistent, and remain so to this day! Anyway, in High School, our assistant director was also my private teacher. I had progressed from my Olds, to a used King Silversonic cornet, and “up” to a 1965 Bach ML 37 Strad cornet, for which I liked the 1 ¼ C Corp mouthpiece. Unfortunately, my teacher was a 10 ½ C guy, and tried to get me to change, but I absolutely could not get a sound out of it.

Anyway, I was hooked on seeking out bargains in brass instruments, which included all accessories. Which brings us to the deep philosophic question which has driven my attention these last 60 plus years! From my experience, the first factor in these evaluation, scientific measurements notwithstanding, is the condition of your chops. I have never been a professional player, so in many periods of my life, while I never completely laid off the horn for more than a week or two, I have had periods of mainly “noodling” rather than focused practicing and keeping in shape to play. During those periods of “casual” playing, I was less aware of the differences between more or less similar cups and configurations. When I am in a period of “focused” playing, I am much more aware of differences, even in mouthpieces that are the same cup from the same maker.

I would also say that when buying random “test played” mouthpieces, the chances that someone has “improved” the mouthpiece by opening up the orifice or throat of the mouthpiece. That changes a LOT of the character of the mouthpiece! But some which seem to measure the same, will still have some “magic”, at least to me, when I am on my game.

That is compounded because of my large collection of horns. Some mouthpieces just work differently with different horns. Last night I was testing a pair of horns using “identical cup” (except for orifice diameters of 24 vs 20 bit size) Schilke 16C4 cups cut for Reeves sleeves. I was knocked out by how different the two horns responded to two different sleeves (6 and 7, which change the gap between the end of the mouthpiece and the leadpipe)! The effects were dramatic, but entirely different between the two horns!

Having said this, I basically hung on to my “go to” Bach Corp 1 ½ C S from the time my college teacher tossed it into my lap in 1968 until I started focusing on Soprano Cornet for most of my playing in 2017. but I still have that 1 ½ C (now gold plated) that comes out for a few concerts per year.

Well, thanks for attending our opening session. I look forward to having the meeting of the Messy Mute Mound Mitigation Movement in the near future!




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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[rhatheway]