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capnomysoul New Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2023 Posts: 3
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:33 am Post subject: "High" Range on Piccolo Trumpet |
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Hello! I am playing the solo trumpet part in my wind ensemble which requires the use of a piccolo trumpet for one of our pieces. I've never played a picc before and can only play with anything that resembles a good tone up to what would be notated as a B-flat on the staff, or a B-flat just above the staff on a B-flat trumpet. The part I need to play goes to what sounds as a double G, or a written G on the top of staff. How can I develop my high range on the piccolo without blowing out my chops? Our concert is in eight weeks. Thanks!
For context, I only have access to a Yamaha piccolo with B-flat and A shanks (I've been using the B-flat shank so far). Additionally, on a B-flat trumpet, I can routinely play up to a high E-flat, or an E or F on a good day, but a double G might be a bit of a stretch. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2105 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:43 am Post subject: |
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You’ll get more qualified answers from the experts but just to get things straight: you can play up to a high Bb on a Bb trumpet. That is, you are playing up to high concert Ab.
And the picc lines should go up almost an octave higher to G (i.e. concert F) above high C? Or are you talking about G just on the top line and I am misunderstanding something? _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1538 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:48 am Post subject: High range on pi |
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Hello,
Welcome to the TH. For the most part, your range on Bb will indicate the range you might have on pic. Just playing the part on pic, won't necessarily give you the G. Piccolo is a different horn to learn. With some direction, you have 8 weeks to make the part happen. A smaller aperture and the thought of a cocktail straw will help in playing the pic. As opposed to a normal soda straw and fast air for Bb/C playing. If you try to muscle a pic for high notes, it will fight you like a feral cat in a cage. Neither sound or cat, will come out. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Mike Prestage Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 Posts: 723 Location: Hereford, UK
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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If your general trumpet high chops are developed enough for this to be realistic in eight weeks, I'd strongly advise you to get a lesson or two on how to get along with the picc. You'll be able to get recommendations for who to go to for this on this forum although depending on where you live it might need to be online.
Your post raises a question which I think is important though (and I'm honestly trying to help by asking this, not be negative). What's your range like on the Bb? What's the highest note you can play convincingly under varied performance conditions, and what's the highest you can produce with some reliability even if not much more than a squeak?
Mike _________________ www.facebook.com/MikePrestageTrumpetTeacher |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1824
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: High range on pi |
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Christian K. Peters wrote: | For the most part, your range on Bb will indicate the range you might have on pic. Just playing the part on pic, won't necessarily give you the G. Piccolo is a different horn to learn. With some direction, you have 8 weeks to make the part happen. |
Generally agree +1.
Another major thing is: practice not so loud and make sure it's nice and easy. No more than 10 minutes at a time on the picc. Listen to Maurice Andre and other picc players, that is the sound you're going for. You are not going for high note "lead playing."
Good luck. |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2186 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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The piccolo is all about finesse and doesn't respond well to brute strenth or hard blowing. Players who can "horse out" a high F or G on the Bb trumpet usually have fits with the piccolo.
Generally, you need to be able to play up to at least a high F on the Bb trumpet without strain to make the transition to the piccolo. Soft long tones were helpful to me, as was just playing songs, such as hymns or lyrical melodies within my comfortable range on the piccolo. Don't even worry about the high notes yet - just get used to what a pic should sound like and feel like. Practice carefully and musically, and then the rest will come. Listen to lots of Maurice Andre for that characteristic piccolo tone and lyricism. The piccolo responds to light, gentle articulation and using less air. Not less support, but less air volume.
All of the practice repertoire for the standard trumpet - scales, long tones, flexibilities, Clarke Studies, etc. can be practiced on the piccolo. Take extra rest time and start sparingly, just a few minutes a day, gradually adding time. Eight weeks of intelligent practice might not get all the range you need, but it will get you the sound you need. And believe it or not, it will help your regular Bb trumpet playing in the long run - you will gain more security up high. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Last edited by spitvalve on Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1022 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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I would recommend just playing the part lower or subbing it to another instrument. To me a note that is uneven in practice is rarely achievable in performance. It is nice you have a piccolo and you may get there in time. I found that the piccolo did help me (an uneven comeback player) in the interval about high C, which is what you are working on. Jonathan |
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capnomysoul New Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2023 Posts: 3
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | You’ll get more qualified answers from the experts but just to get things straight: you can play up to a high Bb on a Bb trumpet. That is, you are playing up to high concert Ab.
And the picc lines should go up almost an octave higher to G (i.e. concert F) above high C? Or are you talking about G just on the top line and I am misunderstanding something? |
Yes, you are correct. I can play up to the high concert Ab on the piccolo trumpet (my usable range typically extends to the concert Db just above the Ab on the Bb trumpet). The picc line goes to the concert F above the Ab (aka double G).
Edit: I messed up the wording and it contradicted previous statements
Last edited by capnomysoul on Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2105 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 7:48 am Post subject: |
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OK, I am slightly confused now: in your original post you say that you can play up to concert Ab with good tone, in the last post you say high Db.
In any case - if the picc melody goes to concert F ABOVE the high Db that you can play (that’s what I gather from your posts) my personal guess is that eight weeks are awfully short to get ready to play the tune on any trumpet.
Wondering if it makes sense to play it an octave lower and on the regular Bb horn? _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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capnomysoul New Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2023 Posts: 3
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | OK, I am slightly confused now: in your original post you say that you can play up to concert Ab with good tone, in the last post you say high Db.
In any case - if the picc melody goes to concert F ABOVE the high Db that you can play (that’s what I gather from your posts) my personal guess is that eight weeks are awfully short to get ready to play the tune on any trumpet.
Wondering if it makes sense to play it an octave lower and on the regular Bb horn? |
Sorry for the confusion! I worded that last post incorrectly. I can play up to concert Ab on piccolo trumpet and concert Db on Bb trumpet. Thanks for your advice. I'll have to talk to the conductor and see what he wants to do for this part. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2618
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just echoing what others have said - if you don't have it on a Bb you're not going to have it on a piccolo. And you're not going to have big, singing high notes on piccolo like on Bb. The picc is about a particular type of sound and it's real easy to sound like a strangled goose. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Caliber50 New Member
Joined: 07 Jun 2017 Posts: 1
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 1:06 am Post subject: |
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spitvalve wrote: | The piccolo is all about finesse and doesn't respond well to brute strenth or hard blowing. Players who can "horse out" a high F or G on the Bb trumpet usually have fits with the piccolo. |
I agree with this part. As a lead trumpet player in a bigband I have to adapt my way of playing when switching to piccolo in an orchestra. I have a Selmer picc, the kind Maurice Andre played on. Brute force doesn't work on a piccolo.
spitvalve wrote: | All of the practice repertoire for the standard trumpet - scales, long tones, flexibilities, Clarke Studies, etc. can be practiced on the piccolo. |
According practicing on piccolo; my teacher, a student of Maurice Andre, learned me the following: practice 50 percent of your time on the Bb trumpet, 40 percent on te C trumpet and only 10 percent on the piccolo trumpet. So watch out with extensive picc studying. It will ruin your embouchure. |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5302 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think picc gives me any more range... but, I do think it makes the 'slots' feel easier to pick out for the same (concert pitch) notes. So, intricate stuff in the 'upper register' on a Bb (or C, or whatever) seems to be a little easier to get clean, if you don't mind the more 'airy' sound of a picc... or if it fits the style of music anyway.
Some piccs sound more 'picc-like' than others, for example, Schilke P5-4 and 7-4 models sound a bit different, with the 7-4 a little less 'thin and airy' sounding, while playing pretty much the same behind the mouthpiece. ymmv. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2175 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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My P5-4 with a GR 62P-S does not sound thin or small.
I've played that set up in a concert band in a section filled with typical Bb s and the director didn't realize I wasn't playing my usual Bb set up. I blended fine and didn't stand out.
It's all in the player's approach and sound concept. And the GR mouthpiece didn't hurt. |
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Douglas James Regular Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2024 Posts: 54
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:48 am Post subject: |
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spitvalve wrote: | The piccolo is all about finesse and doesn't respond well to brute strenth or hard blowing. Players who can "horse out" a high F or G on the Bb trumpet usually have fits with the piccolo.
Generall,y you need to be able to play up to at least a high F on the Bb trumpet without strain to make the transition to the piccolo. Soft long tones were helpful to me, as was just playing songs, such as hymns or lyrical melodies within my comfortable range on the piccolo. Don't even worry about the high notes yet - just get used to what a pic should sound like and feel like. Practice carefully and musically, and then the rest will come. Listen to lots of Maurice Andre for that characteristic piccolo tone and lyricism. The piccolo responds to light, gentle articulation and using less air. Not less support, but less air volume.
All of the practice repertoire for the standard trumpet - scales, long tones, flexibilities, Clarke Studies, etc. can be practiced on the piccolo. Take extra rest time and start sparingly, just a few minutes a day, gradually adding time. Eight weeks of intelligent practice might not get all the range you need, but it will get you the sound you need. And believe it or not, it will help your regular Bb trumpet playing in the long run - you will gain more security up high. |
This raises a question for me, since I'm exploring some other systems such as TCE. note: Currently I'm not playing using TCE methodology just tire kicking.
TCE, uses a pretty heavy articulation, with the spit buzz. My ultimate goal is to fully transition (but still play Bb) to the Picc. or baroque horn.
How would the TCE player use that method if playing the piccolo? since picc is a finesse instrument I wouldn't exactly say that TCE tonging/articulation is finesse?
also high F? are you saying F above high C? if so that seems like a pretty high range for anyone, and few guys have that. especially for Baroque repertoire.
Do you mean "hitting" (pushing out) a high F?
or do you mean actually having a workable range articulating a high f, in the range from the G above the staff to the F above high C, effortlessly?
I am able to play a workable range of D above high C. and can squeak out an F on some days. But when my embouchure is good, I can play in the range from G on the staff to the high C and D, with relative ease. for most picc repertoire isn't that a good starting point? asking for a friend lol _________________ Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1824
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Douglas James wrote: | This raises a question for me
TCE, uses a pretty heavy articulation, with the spit buzz. My ultimate goal is to fully transition (but still play Bb) to the Picc. or baroque horn.
How would the TCE player use that method if playing the piccolo? since picc is a finesse instrument I wouldn't exactly say that TCE tonging/articulation is finesse? |
If a system of playing doesn't allow you to make the music you want, then it's not the system for you.
I don't know enough about TCE to say anything about it. The gist of my thoughts on (non-TCE) articulation are: articulation isn't really about the tongue. The tongue has one real function regarding articulation: to temporarily seal the system so that air does not reach and pass through the lips. How "hard," "percussive," "clear," etc., has more to do with the response of the lips to the air and how you deliver your sound/air. The tongue doesn't really affect finesse unless you're employing a less-than-full-seal tongue style technique.* For me I achieve that by using the tongue to physically interrupt the vibration of the bottom lip (not interrupting the air), which I use in some baroque settings to get varied/vocal articulation types.
*Obviously the tongue can affect finesse if it is impacting your ability to get great response and beautiful sounds. |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2186 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Douglas James wrote: |
also high F? are you saying F above high C? if so that seems like a pretty high range for anyone, and few guys have that. especially for Baroque repertoire.
Do you mean "hitting" (pushing out) a high F?
or do you mean actually having a workable range articulating a high f, in the range from the G above the staff to the F above high C, effortlessly?
I am able to play a workable range of D above high C. and can squeak out an F on some days. But when my embouchure is good, I can play in the range from G on the staff to the high C and D, with relative ease. for most picc repertoire isn't that a good starting point? asking for a friend lol |
F above high C, comfortably, although having a solid high E (D concert) on the Bb trumpet can get you through most literature played on the piccolo (written as top line F for piccolo in A). _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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