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Don Ellis Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2023 Posts: 41
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:34 pm Post subject: Want to be a better Jazz Player? |
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Play Piano, learn how to play changes correctly. Know where the Guide Tones are, know the Melody of the tunes you are learning. Don't give up on Piano playing! Write simple songs, work out some Harmonic structure, then work out all the Jazz Tunes you want to really play well. A great test of your skills is to play changes with your left hand and play Trumpet with your right hand. You can play shells (3rds and 7ths) with your left hand and solo over that with your Trumpet. This works if you stay with it. |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Absolutely spot on :) _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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Bronxgroove Regular Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2019 Posts: 67
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 5:58 am Post subject: |
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I'll have to try that. Sounds like fun. _________________ Yamaha YTR-8335LAII |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2660 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Great idea if you have lots of extra time. For working people, probably not possible as they struggle to find the time to practice one instrument.
Realistically how long do you think it would take to gain that level of proficiency on piano starting from scratch? _________________ Richard
1903 Conn "The Wonder" Cornet
1943 Conn 80A Cornet |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9070 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 7:35 am Post subject: |
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. . . a long time.
But the core suggestion is workable and is a long-established concept. Nothing new. Learning just the fundamental use/orientation of the piano, and its relation to tunes/chords, can help one make a big step forward. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Don Ellis Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2023 Posts: 41
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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I started gigging when I was 16 or so, hundred years ago. An older Piano player got on me about playing the wrong 7ths and showed me some things. I read in Down Beat that Dizzy played some Piano so I would use the Piano at school (we didn't have one at home) when I'd rest on the play and rest routine my teacher gave me. In college I hit it harder for Piano Proficiency which helped my meager technique. Helped a lot in Theory class, Composition. For Jazz Improv I started doing the left hand piano/right hand play trumpet (Aebersold was just coming out, no Patterns For Jazz Coker book). No class yet for Jazz except Jazz Band so I had to figure out what I could do listening to recordings. Anyway, it helped. |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 177 Location: Spain
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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And why not the guitar? Wouldn't it serve the same purpose?
I'm not a guitarist, but I'm skilled enough to play the chord changes at tempo.
I bought a loop pedal to record my own backing tracks, but I also like to play a little guitar after dinner and putting the kids to bed.
It's an instrument full of curiosities.... _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1003 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Probably true, but not for me. I really don't like playing the piano, mainly because it's the staple instrument that every semi-serious musician is supposed to be able play. I'll leave piano-playing to the greats who can actually make it sound the way it's supposed to.
But on the flip side, I have found that writing music offers similar benefits, as does playing the drums (which at least groups you with the people playing the chord progressions). The concept of 'looking at music from a different perspective' is solid advice, and can really enrich your skills on your primary instrument. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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jimspeedjae Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 165
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Any instrument that can play multiple notes gives you an ability to work on harmony as well as melody - both paino and guitar (less so to me, at least) also provide a visual aid to harmonic progression.
But study some basics - everyone wants a Dizzy or Clifford transcription to learn. But you can't beat learning the basics of harmony - it's great for foundations for improvising, arranging/composing and generally understanding music.
Where to start...go and study the Bach 4-part chorales. You'll learn progressions but also how to balance chords and proper harmonic movement in individual parts. As my old techer used to say - Bach did it first. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9070 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:53 am Post subject: |
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" I read in Down Beat that Dizzy played some Piano."
In fact, if I'm not mistaking, Bird wanted to study with Diz and Diz said, "Learn piano first." _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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LadFree Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2022 Posts: 57 Location: NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 9:47 am Post subject: |
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One of the best things you can do is to learn
tunes in as many keys as you can..Start with Blues in all keys
move on to "I got Rhythm" in all keys,and when you feel
proficient move on to Standards in all keys..I do this with my
students and they really improve fast..There are Aebersolds
for this and youtube backing tracks..You can get Irealpro
which allows you to practice tunes at any tempo/any key
so you can get a grip on things at "Tempo de Learno"
Of course learning theory is great and knowing about guide tone lines.
After you do these things..and only when you are confident,
then we must remember what the great Miles Davis said:
Practice this stuff at home but when you get on the bandstand, forget all that
s..t!
Or something like that.. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1947 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:13 am Post subject: |
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LadFree wrote: | One of the best things you can do is to learn
tunes in as many keys as you can..Start with Blues in all keys
move on to "I got Rhythm" in all keys,and when you feel
proficient move on to Standards in all keys |
+1
Another thing that I found helpful is developing "licks" over cadences (II-V-I) in all keys (there's an Aebersold album for this, too). Then deconstruct new tunes you're learning into a collection of false cadences (cadences in keys other than the key of the tune), and you can string together those "licks" you developed to spontaneously create an original improvised solo.
I learned this while taking jazz theory and performance classes at the Wisconsin Conservatory of Music. For me, this was like 'a door being opened' -- it was a really big deal for me. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I need to find time to do this. Playing changes on the piano lets you see right in front of you what happens harmonically. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9070 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I did all the things above, but I really found it helpful to look at transcriptions of solos and see how certain isolated notes laid in/on certain chords. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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Don Ellis Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2023 Posts: 41
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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mike ansberry wrote: | I need to find time to do this. Playing changes on the piano lets you see right in front of you what happens harmonically. |
+1 |
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Don Ellis Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2023 Posts: 41
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | " I read in Down Beat that Dizzy played some Piano."
In fact, if I'm not mistaking, Bird wanted to study with Diz and Diz said, "Learn piano first." |
Yes! |
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Don Ellis Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2023 Posts: 41
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Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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jimspeedjae wrote: | Any instrument that can play multiple notes gives you an ability to work on harmony as well as melody - both paino and guitar (less so to me, at least) also provide a visual aid to harmonic progression.
But study some basics - everyone wants a Dizzy or Clifford transcription to learn. But you can't beat learning the basics of harmony - it's great for foundations for improvising, arranging/composing and generally understanding music.
Where to start...go and study the Bach 4-part chorales. You'll learn progressions but also how to balance chords and proper harmonic movement in individual parts. As my old techer used to say - Bach did it first. |
Teaching Theory/Composition at the University level I would do standard Bach Analysis, then go back and do Chord/Scale Analysis as if we were at Berklee. Heads would explode! But so many College students come out of school knowing something about a certain approach to Theory, but can't read Chord Changes. |
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tptLad Regular Member
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 Posts: 41
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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Very happy to see this thread pop up!
I started on piano before moving to trumpet, and it has definitely helped me understand how jazz/trumpet/music in general works.
Didn't know the tidbit about Diz, though. Very interesting! _________________ "Life is a lot like jazz… it's better when you improvise." - George Gershwin |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 944 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Hi, guitar! Years ago, when I first started arranging for the road bands I played with, it would have been hard to carry a portable piano. The FENDER Rhodes was just too big and heavy. I taught myself to play guitar and bass during my practice rest sessions. I not only worked scales, but changes through the real book on both instruments. This was valuable as I began to see, and hear, chord progression, turn anrounds, and the corresponding chord scales. Then when listening to solos I began to pick these things I was hearing up. This made arranging and playing changes easier. You need to incorporate some ear training into your practice too. Sing it play it. Play piano, or guitar. Playing bass lets me hear the road map. As a result I also became more valuable as a performer as I could double on non horn tunes. When I played Pippin some years ago I played some of the guitar and trumpet parts.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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LaTrompeta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 May 2015 Posts: 867 Location: West Side, USA
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 8:15 am Post subject: |
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This is THE best advice for any musician, IMO. I've been working on piano lately and it's tough for me, but I learn so much about music as I progress and it opens an entirely new world for me. I so wish that I had been more mature as an 8 year-old when my parents made me take piano lessons! _________________ Please join me as well at:
https://trumpetboards.com |
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