Typical insertion amount for a Bach Strad

[Louise Finch]

Having another look down my colleague’s leadpipe in better light, there is a very narrow ledge at the top of his whereas there is none on mine.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

I've had a good go on my colleague's Bach 37. It turns out that his has a lightweight 37 as signified by the star on his bell, maybe even a lightweight body. I'm not sure to be honest how you determine whether you have a LT180 with also a lightweight body, or a 180 with just a lightweight bell.

As I said two posts ago, mouthpieces insert 1mm less on his Bach than mine, but since he has a Bach 1 1/2C mouthpiece in the case that inserts further than any I have measured, 26mm in my Bach compared to 25mm for my 1994 Bach 7C and 24mm for all my other Bach mouthpieces, he is playing a mouthpiece that inserts 25mm in his Bach.

I however used my own mouthpiece that inserts 24mm in my Bach 37 and 23mm in his. I found that maybe owing to this difference or because it turns out that his Bach does have a narrow leadpipe ledge afterall compared to mine not having one at all, I found that his Bach had slightly more resistance and a slightly easier upper register. The sound on his was also a little warmer, which may be owing to his being in lacquer compared to mine being in scratch gold plate.

BUT the difference wasn't that great, and definitely not worth trying different leadpipes etc., especially when I preferred mine to be honest.

I've put my Xeno II away for a bit, and I'm going to spend a bit of time on my Bach and see how I feel about it.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[ldwoods]

I was really hoping you had gotten over the Bach. Oh well, some of us can make poor decisions abruptly while others take a longer time to make poor decisions.

Just kidding, but it does seem from reading your posts over the last few weeks or months that you are trying to make yourself like the Bach, which I just can not understand.
_________________
Larry Woods
LDWoods

[Louise Finch]

[abontrumpet]

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

As a further reply, I think that one of the issues is that I know what I like to feel but I'm not necessarily sure what I'm feeling, if that makes any sense.

I've always thought that my Xeno II trumpet has more resistance and is more slotty, but after today, I don't think that it is, rather that it has a different type of resistance. Although they both played well, and my colleagues Bach 37* played exceptionally well in the upper register, I didn't like the pingy slotting feel. With the James R New 6 sleeve, both Bachs seemed to ping right into the slot almost before I felt that I had played the note. With my Xeno II, there is not that ping into the slot, there is the feeling that I am putting the note where I want to put it. Maybe I'm an odd type of player, but I've always hated slotty horns.

This afternoon, I got out my Xeno II, Bach 184ML and Bach 37 together. It is probably just my preference regarding mouthpiece gap, but with a 6.5 sleeve on my Yamaha, and Kanstul B10 cornet backbore on my Bach 184ML, which gaps more like a Yamaha or Schilke cornet mouthpiece, neither of them slot so immediately.

And I also realised that my Xeno II has a broader more open sound. When I switched from my James R New 6 sleeve to my James R New 6.5 sleeve, I found that the blow opened up on my Bach and the slotting became much more like my Xeno II and Bach 184ML.

My James R New 6.5 sleeve isn't as extreme as it sounds, inserting 25mm like my 1994 Bach 7C and a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece, so around 1mm more than a Bach trumpet mouthpiece. My Kanstul B10 cornet backbore also inserts around 1mm more than a Bach cornet mouthpiece. I'm basically playing the equivalent of Yamaha mouthpieces on my Bachs, and I like the feel of less gap.

Bearing this in mind, I'm not sure whether replacing the leadpipe of my Bach to reinstate a leadpipe ledge, is necessarily going to be a change in the right direction, as contrary to what I thought that I maybe had, I now feel that I appear to be trying to open up the blow of my Bach 37 and make it less slotty, or maybe transfer the resistance elsewhere, probably further down, if that makes any sense.

I spent years on a Yamaha Xeno cornet, later a Neo cornet and although not a particularly free blowing cornet by any means, the resistance didn't appear to be at the start of the leadpipe. It felt further down. My Xeno II trumpet feels like this, as does my Bach 37 with a James R New 6.5 sleeve.

Maybe I sound like I'm talking nonsense. Like I said, I know what I'm feeling and what I want to feel, but maybe I don't really understand what I'm feeling in terms of describable playing characteristics, as despite how I may come over in words, I'm completely different as a player. I'm very much a feeling what I'm playing and listening to how I sound type of player. Once I finally get a horn set-up, I never change it again, and just concentrate on playing it. I'm sticking with my Xeno II, but if/when I do get my Bach 37 out, I'm going to leave the 6.5 sleeve on, and just play the d**mn horn.

I think that you can analyse too much. If I had stuck to the 1994 Bach 7C that I started with, I would be playing a mouthpiece that inserts 25mm in my Bach just like my 6.5 sleeve. I know that more than insertion amount determines gap, and exit wall thickness, whether the shank end is bevelled etc. makes a difference, but I can easily measure the insertion amount.

Anyway, I've finally had enough of this (no doubt you probably have too), and I just want to get on with making music. I don't hate my Bach 37, I just don't love it like my Xeno II. I feel that I can express myself and make my sound on the Xeno II. Maybe this comes with really knowing a horn and how to get your best out of it.

I could switch to my Bach 37 but why? I thought that both being Bach, that it may be easier to switch between with my Bach 184ML cornet, but I don't think so. Trumpet is trumpet, cornet is cornet, and flugel is flugel, and what makers name is on the bell, probably doesn't make any difference. I spend years playing a Yamaha trumpet and cornet, but Bach flugel. Why, because I like my Bach 183, and it gives me the flugel sound that I want.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[homebilly]

so we can put this thread to rest now
Right?
_________________
ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com

[Louise Finch]

Yes, please.
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

As a conclusion to this thread, although I'm very happy that I decided to stick to my Xeno II, I thought that I would dial in the mouthpiece gap of my Bach 37 before putting it away as a spare. It doesn't seem much point to me to have a spare that I'm not happy to grab and run out of the door with.

I started with the James R New 6.5 sleeve I really like on my Yamaha Xeno II. This inserts like a Yamaha trumpet mouthpiece in my Bach 37. I'd say that it plays pretty much like a pig. The slotting is poor and it plays like the water key is stuck open or something. Horrible to play and really hard work.

I tried the James R New 6 sleeve. Annoyingly slotty is my opinion, although it plays ok.

I then tried the 6.25 sleeve that Jim New made me. I'd say that this trumpet plays the best in my opinion, that I'm going to get it to play for me. It slots sufficiently well without being overly slotty, and plays well with a good sound. I ran through the first movement of the Haydn on it, going up to the high Eb, and it continued to slot well. I never need to play any higher than this, and don't have a lot more range than this to be honest, so I didn't try any higher.

My conclusion is that the James R New 6.25 sleeve is the one to go with, and my Bach 37 plays well and has a good sound, but do I like the blow of this trumpet? Not really. It is a bit tight feeling in my opinion. It doesn't sound stuffy at all, but it feels pretty tight. It is not a nice blow in my opinion. I like playing the Xeno II, I do not like playing this Bach 37.

Maybe it is not having a leadpipe ledge, or maybe I just don't like the blow of a Bach 25 leadpipe, presuming that is what I have.

I don't think there is much more to say. This Bach has been renegated to spare status, and I don't think I'll get it out anymore. I don't much care what other people think about the Xeno II compared to the Bach 37. I love my Xeno II, and how it sounds and plays. I could live with this Bach 37, but I don't think I'd ever really grow to love it. I played it as my main trumpet for 7 years, and I can't say that I ever really was particularly keen on it. It did the job, but as I said to my orchestral trumpet colleague, it takes something special in a trumpet to get the cornet out of my hands, and I'm just as happy to play this trumpet as my cornet. In fact I prefer the Xeno II trumpet to my Bach 184ML cornet. Personally I prefer my Xeno/Neo cornets to the Bach 184ML, but I've gone back to my original brass band, and the whole cornet sections are on Bach 184MLs, so it makes sense to do the same.

My very best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Ronnman]

Louise - Why not sell it and put the funds towards another horn of your choosing. It should bring a nice price based on some of the pics you posted of the horn. It will be a perfect fit for someone else!
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

I’ve had a good practice session on my Xeno II and Bach 37 with a James R New 6.25 sleeve.

Finally I’m happy with my Bach. I still prefer both my sound ( at least behind the bell), blow and slotting of my Xeno II, but I am happy enough with the Bach as it is.

After feeling that it was stuffy yesterday, I don’t think it is. The blow resistance with the James R New 6.25 sleeve is very similar to that of my Xeno II. There is more of that pingy slotting feeling with the Bach, with notes slotting in more obviously, but not to an extent that it bothers me.

This has all come down to me being very fussy or should I say discerning regarding mouthpiece gap, and I just hadn’t dialled in my mouthpiece gap properly. This will not be my primary horn, but I going to keep it, and leave the leadpipe as it is, as it is 22 carat gold scratch gold plated, and I see no point in ruining the finish and having to pay gold plating costs, when I now happy with it as it is.

This is now finally the end to this sorry saga lol.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

As a further comment, I feel really relieved to have finally sorted this. It was worrying me that I couldn't get a Bach 37, so a pretty middle of the road trumpet, playing well for me, especially when I know that I have played it previously and liked it well enough.

There has been all this confusion with the lack of leadpipe ledge. Maybe it is making a difference, but if so I feel that it is subtle.

This turned out to be no more than the mouthpiece gap not being dialled into my preference. It shouldn't make this much difference, but I think that it does. Maybe I'm really fussy about my horns, but I know what I like, and the difference between the 6.25 sleeve and 6.5 was massive to me, the difference between the 6 and 6.25 sleeve, not so much. I think that the 6.5 was just too far outside the sweet spot. I'm however not going to analyse it or worry about it. I am completely happy that the James R New 6.25 sleeve is the one for me on my Bach 37.

When it comes down to it, I think that I do have a good Bach, but my preference will always be for my Xeno II. I just prefer it, but it is a subtle preference now, not a love, hate dual between my Xeno II and Bach. I'd be happy to take my Bach to my orchestras and just get on with playing. I probably won't do this, as why change what is working well for me, but I could, which is what I want from my spare trumpet. My spare, spare trumpet is a Boosey and Hawkes Oxford, a mid 1950s higher level student trumpet according to Boosey and Hawkes when I contacted them about it. With a pva and me having dialled in the mouthpiece gap (I'm also using a James R New 6.5 sleeve on this), this also plays very well.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[Louise Finch]

Back to the drawing board with the Bach 37, or at least back to the James R New sleeve.

Thinking that I'd settled on a James R New 6.25 sleeve, I decided that I'd take my Bach to my big band rehearsal.

I did a bit of practice on it at home earlier in the day, also playing my Yamaha Xeno II. All seemed fine, but I was unhappy with the sound of my Bach 37 from behind the bell. It seemed a bit dull to me, but I recorded myself on both trumpets, and I couldn't hear it on the recording. I only played up to around G at the top of the stave, knowing that I had a lot of upper register playing to do later on.

I got to the band, and the upper register seemed like a drainpipe. Yes, all came out fine and nobody noticed, but I was having to work really hard. I had brought my Xeno II with me, and did a chorus on that, and yes, the upper register of my Bach 37 plays like a drainpipe compared to my Xeno II trumpet and how I remember my Bach 184ML cornet.

Not having my James R New 6 sleeve with me, I decided to increase the gap of my Bach 37 with a little bit of paper, and played it like that for the whole rehearsal. Strangely enough, I didn't notice the rather pingy slotting, which had put me off the James R New 6 sleeve at home. And also that slightly dull sound behind the bell went away.

I need further experimentation with the James R New 6 sleeve, but my impressions from last night were that preferring the slotting of my Yamaha Xeno II, which I'm playing with around a standard 1/8" mouthpiece gap, I've been reducing the gap on my Bach 37 to loosen the slotting, only to cause other problems.

I have two James R New 6 sleeves.

I recorded the following note for myself yesterday:

1/8” gap = 3.175mm

Receiver depth = 27.40mm

27.40mm - 3.175mm = 24.225mm

Ian measured one of my James R New 6 sleeves as inserting 24.73mm.

He however says:

I measured them in my trumpet for the sake of completeness, and noticed that the no.6 sleeve is not a good fit in mine- the taper is different and it wobbles around. It's a snug fit in yours. Just an observation; I don't know if it is significant.

For this reason, I’ve gone with my other James R New 6 sleeve. I believe that this one inserts a fraction less.

Like I've said before, choosing a sleeve was easy in my Xeno II, as there was an obvious sweet spot with the James R New gap adjustor/sleeves, when the trumpet literally came alive in my hands in terms of response, and the blow and even the sound opened up beautifully.

However on my Bach 37, it seems more of a continuum, with the slots becoming less definite and the blow opening as you decrease the gap, which would you expect. This maybe because I still feel that I have a replacement leadpipe that was bevelled at the mouthpiece end before fitting. Talking to my colleague (the Ian above) in person rather than via email, it appears (He wasn't overly specific and I didn't want to appear to be questioning him) that he saw the leadpipe ledge rather than necessarily felt it. Either he used some tool that doesn't require resting anything on the ledge, or there is enough of a ledge to feel with the right tool. I personally cannot get a pencil or toothpick to catch on the ledge, or feel any ledge when I rub a cotton bud (Q-tip) over the top of the leadpipe.

Alternatively, maybe the Bach 37 just plays well with a wider range of gaps. Either way, I've got to decide what gap is right for me on a Bach 37, and I'm struggling with this. It is the slotting that I don't really like, possibly a characteristic of a Bach 25 leadpipe. I don't know. I don't find the same thing with my Bach 184ML cornet. Maybe it is the possible leadpipe bevel? I know that some poster's are convinced that it is this. They may very well be right, but I'm not sure yet. Returning my Bach 37 to more of a typical 1/8" gap and getting to know it, is I think the first step, and also not over analysing it. I played it for a whole rehearsal with a narrow strip of paper down one side of the mouthpiece last night, with an unknown gap, and nobody noticed.

Anyway, that is where I'm at.

I'm not sure quite what gap the James R New 6 sleeve is that I'm going to try, but the other one that my colleague measured, inserts similarly or maybe a fraction further, and gives a 0.105" (27.40mm - 24.73mm = 2.67mm = 0.105") gap compared to a typical 1/8" (0.125") gap.

Edit: Actually i think that I'll try both James R New 6 sleeves and pick one.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[abontrumpet]

[JayKosta]

[abontrumpet]

[Louise Finch]

Thanks very much for your replies.

I've had a very extensive practice session since I last posted, starting on my Yamaha Xeno II, then switching to my Bach 37, then going back and forth between the two, different styles, volumes, covering my full range etc., playing the same on each.

I started with the other James R New 6 sleeve to what I have played previously, since my colleague says that the one he measured had an odd taper, and it looks like the problem may have only been the odd taper on this one James R New 6 sleeve, making me try sleeves with less gap that didn't work.

With the other James R New 6 sleeve to what I had played previously, suddenly I had this great Bach in my hands. I don't claim to anything special as a player, but I've received many compliments about my sound, and suddenly this beautiful, resonate Bach 37 sound was coming out of my Bach, and it played great throughout all registers, at all volumes and for all styles. It still is maybe a fraction slotty for my individual taste, but a very good trumpet indeed.

Whether or not the leadpipe is bevelled, I'll never know, but it clearly can play and sound great just like it is. I'm really pleased to have finally got my Bach 37 set-up.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[abontrumpet]