Older instruments vs New

[stuartissimo]

Ymmv is probably the best concensus that can be reached on this topic. It’s in part because ‘better’ is such a vague term, as it depends on many factors and is rather subjective too. There’s also a mental aspect to playing the trumpet; merely thinking you play a great instrument can add 5-10% to your playing regardless of whether it is actually better.

My take on this is that an instrument’s age by itself doesn’t determine quality, but dismissing an instrument out of hand solely because it’s new/old may help if you’re very convinced that it means something to you.

Finally, while the personal circumstances, experiences and opinions of professional players, even renowned ones, may not always match your own, so some critical thinking may be prudent regarding this subject.

It’s a fun discussion though.
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1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[Halflip]

[BStrad43]

I don't know if this was mentioned but we also have the issue of hundreds of years of craftsmanship disappearing between the two world wars (makers died in the wars and so did their apprentices). And then society having little interest in apprenticing, especially around the end of the 70's and early 80's, when the horn section became less popular and guitar became king. Even my generation, people in their 40s now, where told to go to college and our parents/culture made it look bad to want to be a craftsman. (Still today, other then music, one of my favorite classes I took in High School was metals/welding, but my dad frowned at me wanting to continue and heavily forced me to go to college)

Now don't get me wrong, there where great horns made in the late half of the 20th century, (I luckily own one Bach 37) but I personal feel that we could have had more great horns if the World Wars did not happen.

BUT... in the last 25 years, we have had a lot great talent coming back to help with horn development. Example would be Bob Malone and all the guys that apprentice with him here in the US and all the horns being made in Europe now too. Van Laar (RIP my friend we lost you too soon), B&S, Shalgerl, Thein, etc. And even the evolution of what Schilke and Bach have done too in the last 20 years. ( I know I missed a lot of makers and sorry, these were the first to pop into my head) I personal feel that we are in a new amazing era of brass making that took way too long to recover from the last World War.

But.... back to old horns....

I have a late 1960's beat to crap Olds Ambassador and it blows incredibly well. Just the valves and slides a ruined from younger me in the curse of high school marching band and now makes it hard to play.

So new to old horns, if it blows well, lets you play as easily as possible and works with the type of music you want to play, then use it. I just did a gig where I was on my old bach, guy on his Van Laar, and anther guy on a horn that I have no clue what it was. But it all worked and we had a great time playing together.

Cheers!

[chase1973]

I always go vintage, especially with Schilke, Bach, Conn, Benge, Besson, Martin & Calicchio. The reason, for me, is that the older horns used lead in the valve casings. Though this might add an ounce or two, it gives, at least to my ears, a more resonate sound lacking in newer instruments. Kind of like old wood on older Guitars...there's a certain resonance there.

OFC, the issues you have to contend with on vintage horns is the possibility of red rot, the valve block may need to be re-built as the compression is gone sometimes and invariably a new receiver will need to be added.

[Trumpetstud]

So how old does a horn have to be to be considered vintage? I have a 70’s Bach Strad 37 model. I have it in my head that I NEED a 72 for jazz. I kinda started this thread because I’m on a pendulum with getting a new custom horn (with Bach 72 bell) or keeping mine and going vintage with a couesnon flugel. Don’t k ie what I want to be when I grow up! 😆🤦‍♂️

[Halflip]

[Goby]

[Trumpetstud]

Wow! Thanks for that info on Bach jazz players. I appreciate!!

[Brassnose]

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Summer Camargo is also on a 72, one of the new models, I think. Might be interesting to find out if the „72 bell for jazz“ is a Bach marketing shtick or if the younger generation indeed gravitates towards 72 horns.

On the other hand, Lew Soloff was on a M bore 38 for a long part of his career, but he is not one of the younger generation, either
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Trumpetstud]

Is there that big of a difference in sound with the different size bells?

[ldwoods]

[Trumpetstud]

Thanks for the response. Sorry to ask but what is the 72(*)?

[Halflip]

[kramergfy]

A universal "benefit of playing a vintage instrument" would be that you are not contributing to throw-away culture by preserving something from the past rather than buying something new. So in theory, you're reducing unnecessary waste, while also supporting brass technicians and repair shops. A brass instrument can nearly be played forever if it doesn't completely rot away.

Aside that it's a very personal thing. Some people feel a greater connection to a certain type of music playing a certain instrument of historical value. Playing jazz on a Martin, or an old Bach C in a symphony, etc. Some people are nostalgic and sentimental, while others are inspired by technology, always onto the next best thing. Life is short, do what you think is best.
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"I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy

Thread killer.

[benzo277]

I remember Bird talking about ease of playing on his sax in Mingus' autobiography. He had an idea that some instruments may allow you to play easier but this will come with sacrifices in tone. To demonstrate this he got a young Lee Konitz to have a blow on his horn and to Lee Konitz surprise, he couldn't make a peep. To some musicians, ease of play will be more lucrative than having a beautiful tone. But it begs the question on what makes the instrument "better". Is it ease of play or a richer tone? Some people must place a high value on tone or some of those vintage instruments wouldn't sell for big bucks.

[Brassnose]

I like having both playability AND tone in my horn but I agree that’s not easy to find an instrument that does everything the way you like it. For me, I have now two horns that combine everything I could want: one is new (the Schmidt rotary), one is vintage (the Conn, which threw my Bach on the shelf for most situations). So in my opinion it’s more about specifics of a horn rather than new vs. old.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Chickynuggie]

Agreed that YMMV may be the best response…

I’ve owned a Mt. Vernon Strad and a 2008-ish Strad. Both were fine, but neither really fit me. I bought the 2008 Bach because I was told I needed to upgrade from a Silver Flair (which I loved) by my university professor. The Mt. Vernon may be a golden era horn for some, just wasn’t for me. I have a vintage SilverSonic cornet that’s just Ok. I have a ‘51 Super 20 Symphony that’s phenomenal. And, I have 5 Stomvi’s that I’ll never part with (a 6th is going on the marketplace, hopefully this weekend).

Vintage horns do tend to be cheaper, but the good ones usually aren’t. They hold their value (if not increase). If you’re lucky you can get one for a deal, but that goal may require a hunt as opposed to immediate gratification of buying the first one you can find, if that makes sense…

Just my $0.02, after inflation adjustments.

[Richard III]

My 1937 Cleveland Toreador trumpet has valve compression as good as my most recent new horn. I have no idea how that is possible. The intonation is also so good that no adjustments are ever needed.

Now, the issue is the receiver. Playing that horn requires playing a period mouthpiece as nothing modern fits. The bell profile is also different than many modern horns. The bell is only 4 5/8" but the bell swallows all of my mutes to the point I had to buy a couple of new ones.

I keep going back to that horn as the valves and intonation are so good. But the sound is not a modern one. Good thing I only play jazz.
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Richard

1903 Conn "The Wonder" Cornet
1943 Conn 80A Cornet

[Manuel de los Campos]