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adamcz
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 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:38 am Post subject: Custom C flugelhorn? |
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I don't want to play Bb instruments anymore. What are my options for a custom C flugelhorn? Other than Monette I'm not educated about shops that make custom brass instruments. (I may consider Monette anyway, but want to know my options)
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nordlandstrompet
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Taylor Trumpets (UK) is capable to make a C flugelhorn
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Halflip
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Out of curiosity, I did a general search for "Flugelhorn in C". If you would prefer to avoid spending a lot on a custom or modified horn (and you don't mind rotary valves), you may have better luck looking for a European flugel in good condition. For example (these are already sold):
https://www.robbstewart.com/uhlman-flugelhorn-in-c
https://reverb.com/item/63425006-wenzyl-rotary-valve-trumpet-flugelhorn-key-of-c-needs-work-but-does-play (scroll down a bit to see the listing)
Bohland and Fuchs was another brass manufacturer that made a C flugel.
A TH post in another thread about C flugels indicated that Zig Kanstul had the measurements to make a C flugel, but unfortunately Kanstul has been out of business for a while (and I doubt that B.A.C. Horn Doctors, purchaser of Kanstul assets, would be interested).
Come to think of it, Robb Stewart might be interested in the theoretical challenge of converting a B-flat flugelhorn to the key of C (and he'd do a great job), but he's easing into retirement and only entertains projects that are really interesting. In any case, it wouldn't hurt to ask him.
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I was a part of that original discussion with Zig on the creation of a C flugelhorn. The issues in creating a C flugelhorn is that the entire instrument has to be redesigned for the higher key. The section past the valve cluster to the bell flair has to be shortened, and consideration of the taper means that for a bell with similar shape at the throat, the taper from valves to the bell throat has to be faster. That means that the leadpipe has to be carefully balanced to that faster tapering bell. It means that simply "cutting down" a Bb flugelhorn will make a horn that has significant compromises, while cutting a Bb trumpet down to a C can be done far easier.
I might suggest you consider a C cornet. I own a Schilke AC2, would love to own a Getzen C cornet, and would REALLY love to own a Bach C cornet with a 239 bell. Fantastic instruments that meet your interests by top makers cannot be a bad thing. Custom costs a LOT...
Hope this helps!
AL
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Halflip
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: | | The section past the valve cluster to the bell flair has to be shortened, and consideration of the taper means that for a bell with similar shape at the throat, the taper from valves to the bell throat has to be faster. That means that the leadpipe has to be carefully balanced to that faster tapering bell. It means that simply "cutting down" a Bb flugelhorn will make a horn that has significant compromises, while cutting a Bb trumpet down to a C can be done far easier. |
This is great information! Thanks for sharing.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Brassnose
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adamcz
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. It will take me a while to read through those German sites and try to find some sound examples. Maybe there's something there.
| Quote: | | I might suggest you consider a C cornet. |
I think in most cases that would be too bright for my taste, although the Monette 900 Cornet might be something I'd seriously consider. https://www.monette.net/cornets
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: | I was a part of that original discussion with Zig on the creation of a C flugelhorn. The issues in creating a C flugelhorn is that the entire instrument has to be redesigned for the higher key. The section past the valve cluster to the bell flair has to be shortened, and consideration of the taper means that for a bell with similar shape at the throat, the taper from valves to the bell throat has to be faster. That means that the leadpipe has to be carefully balanced to that faster tapering bell. It means that simply "cutting down" a Bb flugelhorn will make a horn that has significant compromises, while cutting a Bb trumpet down to a C can be done far easier.
AL |
I was in discussions with Charles Hargett while Kanstul was still extant. He indicated the C Flugelhorn had been built, but was not "up to snuff" in several areas, namely, intonation.
He advised the horn was available, on a "no return policy".
I balked.
End of story.
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Danbassin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| adamcz wrote: | Thanks for the replies. It will take me a while to read through those German sites and try to find some sound examples. Maybe there's something there.
| Quote: | | I might suggest you consider a C cornet. |
I think in most cases that would be too bright for my taste, although the Monette 900 Cornet might be something I'd seriously consider. https://www.monette.net/cornets |
The Monette 900 Series C Cornet is a remarkable instrument, and with a deep VEE cup, as are recommended on Monette cornets, Flumpets, Flugels (and Cornettes) can produce a very rich and dark sound. The added weight of the 900 series cornets also help achieve a dark sound that can approach some of the qualities of a flugelhorn.
Not to talk out of school, but a dear friend once approached Dave about making a C Flumpet - the discussions, above, about the challenges of reconciling all of the elements of the taper of the instrument and the specifics of an instrument with a particularly wide bell throat were all addressed by Monette as one of the reasons this would be an exceptionally costly custom order.
In Monette fan pages on Facebook, a recent thread was brought up about 900 Series C cornets that may be out there and for sale, and nothing came up. They're amazing, and I'm grateful I've had the opportunity to play them in the past, but I'm also grateful to have my Cornette as my main musical voice - a video exists of John Kim at the shop playing my Cornette back-to-back with a 900 Series (Bb), and this illustrates a lot about what makes each instrument unique...whether a C Cornette could be made more easily than a C Flumpet I can't say...
Happy practicing - in concert pitch, and lots!
-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
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Halflip
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| adamcz wrote: | | It will take me a while to read through those German sites and try to find some sound examples. Maybe there's something there. |
As the only modern C flugelhorn with perinet (piston) valves, I would think that the Beck flugelhorn demonstrated in the YouTube video referenced by Brassnose would provide an end to your search, unless it costs more than you want to pay or they no longer make it (which may be the case -- the link in the video description points to a page that no longer exists within the Beck website).
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| adamcz wrote: | Thanks for the replies. It will take me a while to read through those German sites and try to find some sound examples. Maybe there's something there.
| Quote: | | I might suggest you consider a C cornet. |
I think in most cases that would be too bright for my taste, although the Monette 900 Cornet might be something I'd seriously consider. https://www.monette.net/cornets |
I play my C cornet with a Monette B1-5FL.
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Man Of Constant Sorrow wrote: | | dr_trumpet wrote: | I was a part of that original discussion with Zig on the creation of a C flugelhorn. The issues in creating a C flugelhorn is that the entire instrument has to be redesigned for the higher key. The section past the valve cluster to the bell flair has to be shortened, and consideration of the taper means that for a bell with similar shape at the throat, the taper from valves to the bell throat has to be faster. That means that the leadpipe has to be carefully balanced to that faster tapering bell. It means that simply "cutting down" a Bb flugelhorn will make a horn that has significant compromises, while cutting a Bb trumpet down to a C can be done far easier.
AL |
I was in discussions with Charles Hargett while Kanstul was still extant. He indicated the C Flugelhorn had been built, but was not "up to snuff" in several areas, namely, intonation.
He advised the horn was available, on a "no return policy".
I balked.
End of story. |
I left that part out, because honestly, it says that the C flugel would be a serious compromise if you tried to "cut down" a Bb flugel to size. Better to design it from the ground up, and create and instrument that works. Wonder if Getzen has any interest?
I do own both an Eb and an F flugelhorn, both sopranino instruments, and they both play well. But both of them are made in the key they are, not a creation if a "cut down" instrument in a lower key!
Al
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Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
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adamcz
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Danbassin wrote: |
Not to talk out of school, but a dear friend once approached Dave about making a C Flumpet - the discussions, above, about the challenges of reconciling all of the elements of the taper of the instrument and the specifics of an instrument with a particularly wide bell throat were all addressed by Monette as one of the reasons this would be an exceptionally costly custom order.
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I reached out about the flumpet and/or infinity trumpet and was warned about the cost if its even possible. It would certainly be a leap of faith to commit to a purchase like that when there’s no existing model to play test. I think a heavier C trumpet or cornet that they’ve made before is more my speed. Maybe I’ll look into visiting the shop as I did 20+ years ago when I bought my Bb (2000 LT). I assume they at least have a couple c trumpets I could try.
I’m a jazz/improvisational musician but I play so many other concert pitched instruments that I no longe hear music in Bb as well as I used to. I’d love to find something pitched in C that still has depth and color in the sound.
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| adamcz wrote: | | I play so many other concert pitched instruments that I no longe hear music in Bb as well as I used to. I’d love to find something pitched in C that still has depth and color in the sound. |
Excellent observation. Exactly my very own quandary.
I play other instruments ... keyboards, stringed, percussion (of which, the goatskin heads are tunable, believe-it-or-not).
Also; my transpositional skill-set is lacking.
It has become burdensome to attenuate my "hearing", in keys other than Concert C ... even though I have to play percussion (Bodhran) in a Celtic/Irish-Roots band, with a piper who plays the Uilleann and Highland pipes that are pitched in Eb, I believe (?). 
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Danbassin
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| adamcz wrote: | | Danbassin wrote: |
Not to talk out of school, but a dear friend once approached Dave about making a C Flumpet - the discussions, above, about the challenges of reconciling all of the elements of the taper of the instrument and the specifics of an instrument with a particularly wide bell throat were all addressed by Monette as one of the reasons this would be an exceptionally costly custom order.
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I reached out about the flumpet and/or infinity trumpet and was warned about the cost if its even possible. It would certainly be a leap of faith to commit to a purchase like that when there’s no existing model to play test. I think a heavier C trumpet or cornet that they’ve made before is more my speed. Maybe I’ll look into visiting the shop as I did 20+ years ago when I bought my Bb (2000 LT). I assume they at least have a couple c trumpets I could try.
I’m a jazz/improvisational musician but I play so many other concert pitched instruments that I no longe hear music in Bb as well as I used to. I’d love to find something pitched in C that still has depth and color in the sound. |
You've got some great stuff online!
I'm sure you've seen this, but if not...let's hope this link works: https://www.facebook.com/monettetrumpets/videos/new-prototype-jazz-c-trumpet/361153241335783/
My friend who made the C Flumpet inquiry was in the same boat as you - much more focused with concert pitched instruments, as a longtime C trumpet player, and wanted something that would have that richness of sound, intimacy, and depth of a not-trumpet voice in the key he related to best at the time. When I first started playing Monette (C trumpets), everything felt more at home and easier to express with that gear that soon playing my (conventional) Bb felt almost like I was transposing. Now, you sound as home as you can on your Monette Bb, but for me it wasn't until I had a Flumpet and then later my Cornette when Bb again became as familiar a home base as C.
There have been a lot of cool suggestions for concert pitched flugels and other really interesting options, but that instinct to have a 900 series C cornet sounds like it might be the best of all possible worlds. Although they're exceedingly rare on the used market, if you were looking to offload your Bb, you could probably cover a heafty chunk of the cost of a new one. It was a very difficult decision to make, but I ended up selling my Flumpet to partially fund my Cornette, and for me that was the right decision.
All the best,
-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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nieuwguyski
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ricco Kühn makes a corno da caccia in C:
https://www.ricco-kuehn.de/instruments/corni-da-caccia/c313c-e/
The description says you can use either a trumpet or flugelhorn mouthpiece and one of the pictures shows multiple tuning bits.
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| dr_trumpet wrote: | I was a part of that original discussion with Zig on the creation of a C flugelhorn. The issues in creating a C flugelhorn is that the entire instrument has to be redesigned for the higher key. The section past the valve cluster to the bell flair has to be shortened, and consideration of the taper means that for a bell with similar shape at the throat, the taper from valves to the bell throat has to be faster. That means that the leadpipe has to be carefully balanced to that faster tapering bell. It means that simply "cutting down" a Bb flugelhorn will make a horn that has significant compromises, while cutting a Bb trumpet down to a C can be done far easier.
I might suggest you consider a C cornet. I own a Schilke AC2, would love to own a Getzen C cornet, and would REALLY love to own a Bach C cornet with a 239 bell. Fantastic instruments that meet your interests by top makers cannot be a bad thing. Custom costs a LOT...
Hope this helps!
AL |
Adding to the above comments, Zig actually did build one 1525 in C. A customer commissioned it, the factory produced it and then the customer died before the instrument was delivered. I can't remember if I played the horn. I doubt it, but I did see it at the factory one day and Zig offered to sell it to me at a greatly reduced price. Unfortunately, I did not have the money to buy what would be for me a collector's item that is almost entirely for showing off. The factory finally did find a buyer (in San Diego, I think), so it's out there somewhere.
Zig's comment was that he would never build another one.
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adamcz
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:34 am Post subject: |
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I reached out to Beck and Monette but haven't heard back yet. I assume communication will take a while this time of year. The link to a Monette C jazz trumpet that Danbassin posted earlier led me to a couple other relevant videos on their Facebook page. All three of these videos are actually closer to the sound in my head than the jazz-intended one, although mic position & different players make comparisons worth little.
P3 with FL mouthpiece
https://www.facebook.com/monettetrumpets/videos/495224094659399
900 C cornet
https://www.facebook.com/monettetrumpets/videos/1085102251700820
Mireia P3
https://www.facebook.com/monettetrumpets/videos/897945100401856
I'll also say that Mireia's sound in general (check her album "Temperaments"! ) is really close to what I would want out of a C trumpet. None of that "tinny" sound in there. It's funny to realize in late 2023 that she's one of my favorite trumpet players because I met her a few times socially in college (a long time ago!) but didn't hear her play.
I could see a P3 trumpet *and* a C Flugelhorn as one possible outcome (not both this year), or perhaps just a cornet/cornette and two mouthpieces.
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:39 am Post subject: |
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OP: maybe you could get this one in C?
https://www.inderbinen.com/en/maroon-en
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adamcz
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