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CaptPat Regular Member
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 62 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:32 am Post subject: Purchase Advice |
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Coming back to trumpet and am seeking advice on purchasing a horn. I played in HS (late 70's) and came back in the mid 90's for a short period till work and family obligations made it tough to consistently practice. My original instrument was an student Olds, and I rented a Yamaha student horn in the 90's IIRC I wasn't in love with the Yamaha
My budget for a horn is ~$500 for a used instrument (there's room to flex for a good opportunity). I've noodled around a bit on the web (Marketplace, Craigslist, Reverb, etc.) concluding that a new instrument is outside my budget. For a bit more a good used professional horn is easily in reach. In my location the pickings on Marketplace and Craigslist are pretty slim, seems a bit odd since I live in a university town.
What should I look for in a used instrument beyond cosmetic condition, and the valves/slides all move? Any brands that are consistently a good value, as well as brands to avoid; have to think about resale value in case the third time is not a charm. I'm not a collector or restorer, my priority is acquiring a good user horn.
A final question what are folks experience with Reverb?
Thanks
Pat |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9079 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Call Austin Custom Brass and talk with one of the people there about your goals and budget. All the salespersons are professional musicians.
https://www.austincustombrass.biz/ _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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Rogerrr Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2020 Posts: 144 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 6:37 am Post subject: |
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I have bought three used Olds trumpets off Reverb from different sellers and each time the instrument was exactly as described.
My rule about a place like Reverb is focus on the ads that include photos of all the individual parts like valves and slides. Even if you can’t tell a lot from the photos it shows attention to detail and some knowledge of trumpets unlike someone who just found grandpa’s trumpet in the attic & has no clue what condition it’s in. _________________ Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player ) |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2065 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Unless the horn looks like it was run over by a steam roller, I'd suggest that the first concern is valves that are fast and smooth. Valve repairs/rebuilds can be quite expensive, so that is work you want to avoid.
The next area of concern would be avoidance of red rot. The most common places to find it are the leadpipe and the crooks of the slides. Replacing those components could also be costly.
You also want to avoid horns with major dents and patches (in general). Minor dents and dings are likely not a big deal as long as they do not impede slide motion. They can often be removed inexpensively and typically don't have a big impact on sound. Also, if you opt for a vintage horn, a patch might not be too big of a deal, but a patch on a recent instrument could be an indication of serious damage.
I would then say you should look for slides that move smoothly, particularly the main tuning slide and the third valve slide. If they don't, they can probably be unstuck inexpensively, but it is a gamble.
I'd also suggest avoiding a horn with a damaged bell, although a good repair tech can do wonders with many kinds of bell damage. But it might be expensive and might have more of an impact on the horn than damage in other locations.
Cosmetic condition is a personal preference. If I was on a tight budget I would make cosmetic condition a low priority, but cosmetic condition can be an indicator of how well a horn was cared for.
The Getzen 300/400 series student trumpets are sometimes available used in your price range. They are well-made instruments and might be worth considering.
Good luck! |
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CaptPat Regular Member
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 62 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the advice both here and in several PM's I received.
I'm after doing some research on the market I've decided to increase my budget. I'm a bit leery of "student" horns. My previous experience with a student Yamaha was not a big success, and less so after I was able to try my buddy's Callicchio. The Yamaha was like a tool, the Callicchio was a partner. I think there are a number of good choices when stepping up from the student level. Haven't yet established a budget limit however, as the price goes up so must the value. The ability to recoup my investment in case the comeback doesn't last becomes more important.
Currently looking at Getzen Eterna II, Strad 37, Besson International, Yamaha Allegro, and 6335 -- all seem to be well regarded here on TH.
Well the hunt continues.... |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1849 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:18 am Post subject: |
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If you liked the Calicchio so much, I must ask which model it was. If it was the typical lead config, 1s/2, then you will probably NOT like most Bach Strads. If you like lighter and brighter, like most Calicchio horns, then look at Schilke and some Yamaha models. In fact I just sold another lighter horn that may have suited you, it was a King Silver Flair 1055T. They are fantastic horns, keep your eyes open and you might be able to snag one in the $850-$1,000 range. It should be from the late 60s to very early 70s. You might want to do a search on TH for threads discussing King Silver Flair 1055T. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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CaptPat Regular Member
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 62 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Yes it was a Callicchio 1s2. Thoughts in a King 2055? |
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Ronnman Veteran Member
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Joined: 09 Aug 2019 Posts: 415 Location: SE Louisiana
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:55 am Post subject: |
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CaptPat - Pass on the King 2055T. You might try a Getzen 700 Eterna II. They can be had in your price range. Getzen build quality is good and their valves are excellent. Below are some of the questions I always ask, when buying online, if not posted or obvious.
Ron
Does this horn have a lacquer finish or is it unfinished brass?
What is the approximate year of manufacture?
What is the bore size?
Is the any red rot on the horn?
Any dings or dents on the horn?
Any bent tubing or braces on the trumpet?
Any evidence of repairs to the horn?
Does the price include the original case?
What shipping method will be used, FEDEX, UPS, USPS… other?
Please provide pics of both sides of the valves and slides removed from the horn. Also, pics inline of the lead pipe and bell tube from the crook vantage point. _________________ Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014
Last edited by Ronnman on Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1849 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:04 am Post subject: |
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CaptPat wrote: | Yes it was a Callicchio 1s2. Thoughts in a King 2055? |
I have never played the 2055, but based on other's posts, yes, probably best to avoid the 2055. It is a different horn. I have had two 1055T trumpets and they are really good players. Light, nimble, sparkly tone, responsive and incredible intonation. If I was in your situation, liking the 1S/2 and looking for an affordable horn that will hold value in the event you need to resell it, I would look really hard for a good affordable 1055T. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1849 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:11 am Post subject: |
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I just saw candidate for you in TH Marketplace. You will probably like how it plays, but I am not sure about resale value down the road if you do not like it. If you paid $850 for it, depending on how quick you want to resell it, you might need to accept $700-$800.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=144328&s=Yamaha-YTR-732-Silver-medium-bore
Disclaimer: I have no affiliation or knowledge of the seller. _________________ Larry Woods
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WxJeff Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 2486 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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CaptPat wrote: | Thanks for the advice both here and in several PM's I received.
Currently looking at Getzen Eterna II, Strad 37, Besson International, Yamaha Allegro, and 6335 -- all seem to be well regarded here on TH.
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I've been "back" for over fifteen years now and for quite some time tried to convince my wife that the research, buying and selling of horns was part of the hobby. Her response, "Ok, but I don't understand why you can't be content with the horn you have... you sound good."
Six years ago I bought a Kanstul built F Besson International (~$400) and her words have rung true. Every time I am now struck with wanderlust, I realize my current horn does everything I ask of it... I play regularly in church orchestra settings. _________________ Kanstul F Besson International 800 Bb
Jupiter SCR-520 |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9079 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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WxJeff wrote: | I've been "back" for over fifteen years now and for quite some time tried to convince my wife that the research, buying and selling of horns was part of the hobby. Her response, "Ok, but I don't understand why you can't be content with the horn you have... you sound good."
Six years ago I bought a Kanstul built F Besson International (~$400) and her words have rung true. Every time I am now struck with wanderlust, I realize my current horn does everything I ask of it... I play regularly in church orchestra settings. |
"You Got'a Love the One You're With". ![](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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CaptPat Regular Member
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 62 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2023 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Whelp, talk about paralysis by analysis, lots of time spent on REVERB, Ebay, TH Marketplace, FB marketplace. It's almost all blending together. As I mentioned earlier I've increased the budget, focussing on resale value instead.
I'd like to give a shout-out to Austin Custom Brass, Josh spent about 30 minutes on the phone with me coming up with some suggestions. No upsell or pressure.
Under active (horn is in reasonable condition, fair price, and is available) consideration:
Getzen Eterna II
Schagrel JM2 (demo unit)
King Silver Flare 1055T
Andrews Sonic (demo unit)
Various Strad -- I found one on FB Marketplace that seems in excellent condition for a very good price.
Still looking at Yamaha 63XX and 83XX
Again thanks for all of the advice and recommendations, it's helping sort through it all. |
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WxJeff Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 10 Dec 2002 Posts: 2486 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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We've all been there, brother, enjoy the ride! Definitely sounds like you're doing due diligence. _________________ Kanstul F Besson International 800 Bb
Jupiter SCR-520 |
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JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 259
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Just as you should choose mouthpieces based first upon how their diameter fits your lips, you should choose a trumpet based upon how the resonating part of the instrument fits you. Ask yourself what "concept" of sound you value from your trumpet and whether the music you play necessitates your playing a variety of sound concepts to fit the music you like to perform.
As I have very good lung capacity, I enjoy .468 and .470 extra-large bore horns based upon the quantity of sound that I can get out of them, their lower resistance, and the flexibility they give me manipulating the standing wave within the horn.
Next, I consider the bell shape. My concept of a great bell is one that allows me to blend with a section yet light up when I need to lead an ensemble. One of the best compliments which I received came from a woodwind player who said that my playing inspired the ensemble to make the music exciting. For this reason, I played a Bach 72 most of my years and then graduated to a Wild Thing with its large throated bell that plays mellow when below a mezzoforte and begins to come alive when you ramp up to a forte or greater.
Then, you have lead pipe design. The Wild Thing has a very good normal lead pipe that fits the lightweight body of the horn. However, on my Bach trumpets, I really find the 180LR horns superior to the standard 180 designs, based upon the 180LR having a lightweight body paired with a long reversed lead pipe and a standard weight bell.
Penultimately, an important consideration remains the valves, because you cannot get from note to note if you have troublesome and/or non-responsive valves.
Finally, you should consider the finish of the horn. Silver gives long-lasting protection to the horn, has nearly the same speed-of-sound rating as brass, and has anti-bacterial properties. A double silver dip though will tend to make a horn darker. Gold gives you an even darker sound, because gold does not stick to brass and must get plated upon silver. Gold will always give a darker sound than silver not just due to the need for double plating but also due to the fact that sound travels more slowly through gold than silver or brass. Lacquer horns have an inherent problem: it's nearly impossible to apply an even coat (this causes sound inconsistencies from horn to horn, especially on older horns that manufacturers hand-sprayed) and the lacquer will wear and flake off through the decades, leaving you with a raw brass horn that will start to corrode due to the salts from the sweat glands on your hands.
So, I advocate that you think hard about what you want in a horn before you buy one, as it will save you from having to go on both a "mouthpiece safari" and a "horn safari" . . . and do not limit yourself to only $500 as you can likely get a great used horn that will fit your sound concept and last you a lifetime for $1500.
I missed so many great buy opportunities due to having an artificial spending limit rather than getting the horn that I wanted. Sometimes, you just have to say "what the hell" and live a little poor for a while to get what you want. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2088 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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Gotta love that „what the hell“ aspect in the previous post Personally (and this goes back to a joke with my wife awhile back) I’ll try to limit myself to no more than ten instruments - so far that has worked out 💪 _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Klier, (Frate or Curry) |
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CaptPat Regular Member
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 62 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Well, I thought I'd tie this off I purchased a Bach 37, found a great deal, and went for it. It's not where I thought I'd end up when I started. But I've wanted one for a long time and "what the hell" I worked long and hard to get to this point so time to enjoy. |
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Ronnman Veteran Member
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Joined: 09 Aug 2019 Posts: 415 Location: SE Louisiana
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:23 am Post subject: |
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CaptPat - congrats on the horn you had on your list!
Ron _________________ Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014 |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2023 6:14 am Post subject: |
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CaptPat wrote: | Well, I thought I'd tie this off I purchased a Bach 37, found a great deal, and went for it. It's not where I thought I'd end up when I started. But I've wanted one for a long time and "what the hell" I worked long and hard to get to this point so time to enjoy. |
Let us know how you like it. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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CaptPat Regular Member
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 62 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I like it.
Surprised myself on the first attempt I was able to coax out a passable scale (low C to middle C). After that things began to regress, no surprise. I expect things will start getting better after I train my lip. For now, my routine is several 15-minute sessions/day, after about 15 minutes the tone starts to really degrade so I stop. Aside from being able to read music and remembering most of the fingerings it really is like starting from ground zero again.
I've ID'd a potential instructor, once I get to be able to post a 30-minute training session I'll start with some lessons, initially to make sure that the right foundation is present. |
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