Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:54 pm Post subject: One Stubborn Note...
Hello everyone!
It's been nearly 5 years since I've made a range post, and since then I've made great strides in my playing ability. Back in 2018, I was a high schooler who had recently purchased a lead mouthpiece and had a range gap of a fifth between high C and high G, with everything high G and above being a whisper.
Now, in 2023, I play lead in both marching and jazz band at my college and have a fortissimo high G at my disposal. Above that, I can play a high Ab, Bb, B, double C, etc., at mezzo forte/forte (although they can feel/sound strained).
However, I have one stubborn note: high A. On a good day, I can play it mezzo piano/mezzo forte, and on a regular day, I can't play it at all, going back and forth between a high G and a high Bb (which would be cool if it weren't so infuriating).
As I did last time I posted here, I have attached a YouTube video showing off my playing (hopefully the audio levels aren't abysmal), and I'd love to hear any and all constructive criticism and advice you all have, whether that be exercises to practice, trying to find a closer correlation between whistling and playing (which has already helped me immensely), or anything else you have to offer. I plan to present my range predicament to my private instructor once he's done touring with his drum corps, but until then, I'd love to get advice from you all.
Also, if you'd like me to record anything else to help get a better grasp of my situation, let me know. Thanks!
Note: Keep volume down, I played louder than I thought. Subtitles are in the description. Didn't realize I wasn't talking close enough to my mic. _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
I'm curious, why the odd pitch pattern going up to the G?
You've got other issues besides worrying about the high A - from what I see you don't have the G down solid yet. You're kind of squeezing your way up to it but you don't own it.
Can you:
1. Play a clean two octave G major scale up and down starting from second line G on the staff to G over high C then back down with a solid, non-brittle sound throughout?
2. Play a clean two octave chromatic scale up and down over the same range as above?
3. Arpeggiate a G chord over the same range?
4. How about three octaves all of the above starting on G below the staff?
5. Play low C - G - third space C - G - high C - G and back down?
6. Pick off a G over high C loud and clean?
In my opinion the Roy Roman horn on palm stuff is a useless waste of time that should go in the same trash can as free-buzzing - work on playing the way you actually play.
You still need to fine-tune the mechanics. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1056 Location: Salisbury, MD
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:28 am Post subject:
That A has been the nemesis of many players. For a lot of people, they just can't find the slot. Wayne Bergeron has made a career out of the note but he jokes "don't ever ask me to play the Bb above". Of course we've all heard Wayne played to D above with great accuracy. His point was, most people have a troublesome note.
Some people play that A with traditional fingerings (1-2). Some people play it with 3. Others have indicated that 1 works for them. And, I've heard that Bill Chase sometimes used 1-2-3 to get a good slot.
It's a personal thing trying to figure out what works for you and gives you the confidence to play it.
Building on what Robert said - as we develop our range, sometimes we think we own it a bit before we do. Personally, I advertise my range as E above high C because I know I have that even on my worst days. But, people that know me will say that they've heard me play strong Es and Fs above double C. That's true, but I don't own those notes because they're not available whenever I want them. So, I advertise a more modest range and usually over deliver. _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3329 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 4:31 am Post subject:
I suggest you concentrate on the quality of the tone for those high notes - go up gradually while maintaining a good resonant sound.
It might be necessary to use more rim pressure than you currently do - not 'excessive pressure', but enough to help form and stabilize the aperture. Also pay attention to using lower lip rim pressure to allow fuller vibration of the upper lip (transfer pressure from upper to lower on high notes). _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
I recommend a one-off lesson with somebody really equipped to handle this. I watched Adam Rapa work with a student during his Lotus Trumpet tour and he has a great approach (he's working on how easy you can get up there). Rapa also mentioned that he has a note that doesn't quite slot for him and it's changed over the years. So, not a unique thing to you.
So, invest in a good lesson. The things that can't go wrong is always work on quality and ease; making it all sound really really good. Also put it in musical contexts; sometimes you can get stale constantly working on scales and arpeggios.
That A has been the nemesis of many players. For a lot of people, they just can't find the slot. Wayne Bergeron has made a career out of the note but he jokes "don't ever ask me to play the Bb above". Of course we've all heard Wayne played to D above with great accuracy. His point was, most people have a troublesome note.
Some people play that A with traditional fingerings (1-2). Some people play it with 3. Others have indicated that 1 works for them. And, I've heard that Bill Chase sometimes used 1-2-3 to get a good slot.
It's a personal thing trying to figure out what works for you and gives you the confidence to play it.
Building on what Robert said - as we develop our range, sometimes we think we own it a bit before we do. Personally, I advertise my range as E above high C because I know I have that even on my worst days. But, people that know me will say that they've heard me play strong Es and Fs above double C. That's true, but I don't own those notes because they're not available whenever I want them. So, I advertise a more modest range and usually over deliver.
Thanks for the response! And yeah, I definitely don't own a high G. I'm still in the process of getting it down, and don't even think about asking me to tongue in that register more than once a measure. I'm just trying to figure out why my A is so much less consistent (pretty much a drop-off from 50% to 5% accuracy). _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
I suggest you concentrate on the quality of the tone for those high notes - go up gradually while maintaining a good resonant sound.
It might be necessary to use more rim pressure than you currently do - not 'excessive pressure', but enough to help form and stabilize the aperture. Also pay attention to using lower lip rim pressure to allow fuller vibration of the upper lip (transfer pressure from upper to lower on high notes).
I'll look into transferring pressure to my lower lip. Thank you! _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
I recommend a one-off lesson with somebody really equipped to handle this. I watched Adam Rapa work with a student during his Lotus Trumpet tour and he has a great approach (he's working on how easy you can get up there). Rapa also mentioned that he has a note that doesn't quite slot for him and it's changed over the years. So, not a unique thing to you.
So, invest in a good lesson. The things that can't go wrong is always work on quality and ease; making it all sound really really good. Also put it in musical contexts; sometimes you can get stale constantly working on scales and arpeggios.
I'm planning on getting a lesson with Chip Crotts once the drum corps season is over. Lessons are such a great help! _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
I'm curious, why the odd pitch pattern going up to the G?
You've got other issues besides worrying about the high A - from what I see you don't have the G down solid yet. You're kind of squeezing your way up to it but you don't own it.
Can you:
1. Play a clean two octave G major scale up and down starting from second line G on the staff to G over high C then back down with a solid, non-brittle sound throughout?
2. Play a clean two octave chromatic scale up and down over the same range as above?
3. Arpeggiate a G chord over the same range?
4. How about three octaves all of the above starting on G below the staff?
5. Play low C - G - third space C - G - high C - G and back down?
6. Pick off a G over high C loud and clean?
In my opinion the Roy Roman horn on palm stuff is a useless waste of time that should go in the same trash can as free-buzzing - work on playing the way you actually play.
You still need to fine-tune the mechanics.
Thought it would be best to just record another video.
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2172 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:05 pm Post subject:
If you ever watch Louis Dowdeswell's videos, he has a high A that will break glass--and he uses the first valve.
When you start getting into that range of the trumpet, just about any valve works on any note because you have so many harmonics available up there. You just have to find the combination that slots the best for you.
Just my two cents on your video--impressive range improvement in five years. However, it sounds like you're working too hard--splatting and overshooting on your low and middle register attacks indicate to me that you are not balancing your loud high playing with soft middle register practice.
With marching band and jazz band and all that your chops can take a beating. Back off on the range practice and focus more on getting control of your tone in the middle and low registers up to high C, and practice softly--your aim is to make your chops feel good before you start your daily punishment in rehearsals and performances.
You've already proven you can play those high notes, so don't practice them. If everything is working right in the middle register, that feel will eventually translate to the high register. With as much as you have to play high in your ensembles, there's no need to practice high and loud stuff. Just a simple routine--not really a warm-up, necessarily, but just easy and pretty and focusing more on letting the tone ring.
Blowing on the pitch on just your air stream--kind of a whoosh-whistle, and you can do it breathing in and breathing out; it doesn't have to be forced--followed by playing it on the horn will help. That's what helped me when I was your age. I was having the same issue, and my chops were always stiff and puffy until a great teacher helped me get control of blowing on the pitch. I could literally feel the excess tension draining out of my embouchure when I did those exercises and I had more resonance in all registers with less effort. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
If you ever watch Louis Dowdeswell's videos, he has a high A that will break glass--and he uses the first valve.
When you start getting into that range of the trumpet, just about any valve works on any note because you have so many harmonics available up there. You just have to find the combination that slots the best for you.
Just my two cents on your video--impressive range improvement in five years. However, it sounds like you're working too hard--splatting and overshooting on your low and middle register attacks indicate to me that you are not balancing your loud high playing with soft middle register practice.
With marching band and jazz band and all that your chops can take a beating. Back off on the range practice and focus more on getting control of your tone in the middle and low registers up to high C, and practice softly--your aim is to make your chops feel good before you start your daily punishment in rehearsals and performances.
You've already proven you can play those high notes, so don't practice them. If everything is working right in the middle register, that feel will eventually translate to the high register. With as much as you have to play high in your ensembles, there's no need to practice high and loud stuff. Just a simple routine--not really a warm-up, necessarily, but just easy and pretty and focusing more on letting the tone ring.
Blowing on the pitch on just your air stream--kind of a whoosh-whistle, and you can do it breathing in and breathing out; it doesn't have to be forced--followed by playing it on the horn will help. That's what helped me when I was your age. I was having the same issue, and my chops were always stiff and puffy until a great teacher helped me get control of blowing on the pitch. I could literally feel the excess tension draining out of my embouchure when I did those exercises and I had more resonance in all registers with less effort.
Thank you! On the days I can hit a high A, I can play them with any valve combination, and the one that slots best for me depends on the day. What I've realized from most of these comments is that any issues I have in the lower register manifest themselves tenfold in the upper register. I'll be focusing on that for the time being. _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:22 pm Post subject:
Years ago, I was talking to John Skinner after a rehearsal and we got on the subject of mouthpieces (because I noticed he used bent mouthpieces) and then range came up. He said he could play all the way up to DHC and when he tried a GR, it added one note to his range: that pesky A. I had to laugh. He wasn't necessarily endorsing GR, just commenting that sometimes mouthpieces can have an unexpected effect on one's playable range. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Years ago, I was talking to John Skinner after a rehearsal and we got on the subject of mouthpieces (because I noticed he used bent mouthpieces) and then range came up. He said he could play all the way up to DHC and when he tried a GR, it added one note to his range: that pesky A. I had to laugh. He wasn't necessarily endorsing GR, just commenting that sometimes mouthpieces can have an unexpected effect on one's playable range.
I definitely agree. Unfortunately, in this case, I think it's a me problem. I also have a gap in my whistling range, and I can really only whistle both that note and play a high A when I have my tongue all the way down, which I think is an effect of my somewhat weird teeth and jaw. I have the same problems on my Yamaha Eric Miyashiro 1, Bach 3C, Bach 5C, and Schilke 14A4A. _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
You'll see better results if you go to a teacher proven to teach this stuff well, I can guarantee it. You can refine what you have and make your life so much easier, and from what I see you aren't far off having a decent and reliable upper register.
I can tell you that you have an issue with over blowing (and that your air support isn't quite serving you), and I will take a guess that your upper register routine needs a change in either how you practise it, or what you practice.
You will benefit massively from a lesson with any of the following (I know there are many great teachers, I am listing those with whom I have taken a lesson or more, personally):
Bryan Davis, Roger Ingram, Serafin Aguilar, Mike Sailors, Rich Willey, Chris LaBarbera, Chris Tedesco (tho I don't know if he is actively teaching), Mike Smith (if in FL).
Bryan and I talk off and on, I usually jump on Zoom with him once or twice a year - usually when I get in a bit of a spin or need to tweak things - and it always amazes me how on the pulse his finger is wrt what to say and how to say it, as well as nailing down my issues. This is a testament to the potential for Zoom being useful.
From what I have heard, a lesson with Roger Ingram would be a great resource. He not only can play up there, but he has figured out how to explain the technique to students.
You'll see better results if you go to a teacher proven to teach this stuff well, I can guarantee it. You can refine what you have and make your life so much easier, and from what I see you aren't far off having a decent and reliable upper register.
I can tell you that you have an issue with over blowing (and that your air support isn't quite serving you), and I will take a guess that your upper register routine needs a change in either how you practise it, or what you practice.
You will benefit massively from a lesson with any of the following (I know there are many great teachers, I am listing those with whom I have taken a lesson or more, personally):
Bryan Davis, Roger Ingram, Serafin Aguilar, Mike Sailors, Rich Willey, Chris LaBarbera, Chris Tedesco (tho I don't know if he is actively teaching), Mike Smith (if in FL).
Bryan and I talk off and on, I usually jump on Zoom with him once or twice a year - usually when I get in a bit of a spin or need to tweak things - and it always amazes me how on the pulse his finger is wrt what to say and how to say it, as well as nailing down my issues. This is a testament to the potential for Zoom being useful.
Go take a lesson with one of those guys!
Best,
Mike
If I'm still stuck in a rut after a lesson with Chip Crotts, I definitely will! _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
trying to find a closer correlation between whistling and playing ,
There is no causal correlation. Don't be concerned with that. There are vague similarities in the motions of the jaw and tongue, but their actual mechanisms are different between the two activities. Playing is NOT whistling and trying to force some strict correlation will be detrimental.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3329 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 4:43 am Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Op wrote:
Quote:
trying to find a closer correlation between whistling and playing ,
There is no causal correlation. Don't be concerned with that. There are vague similarities in the motions of the jaw and tongue, but their actual mechanisms are different between the two activities. Playing is NOT whistling and trying to force some strict correlation will be detrimental.
-----------------------
The only correlation is developing the 'ability' to control and position the embouchure for the specific function. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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