Pro-level Cornets

rafterman · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:29 am Post subject:

I'd be interested in thoughts and ideas regarding good (pro??) quality cornets. I recently bought an Olds Ambassador - and see many of you with good things to say re Olds, Silvertone, Bostons, etc. How about new production horns and makers.

I suggest three categories:

1) "off-the-shelf" products, around $1000 to 1500 put out by the likes of Kanstul, etc.
2) "super" cornets at higher price points - like those available from Lawler, WTs, etc.
3) other ideas related to but not right in category 1 or 2

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:10 am Post subject:

A couple of really great playing and sounding "custom cornets that I have sampled only....

First is the beautiful little Classic model B cornet...that belonged to Adre Dubelsten, a young exceptionally accomplished young player from Portland, who was good enough to let this old BBD try that exceptionally beautiful sounding and playing cornet.
http://www.monette.net/newsite/online/mbc2000/images/mbc2000_028.jpg

and check out the other truly amazing cornet that belonged to a good Doctor from Calif.
http://www.monette.net/newsite/instruments_cornet.htm

Hope these links fly...as I have fat fingers and few brain cells.

otherwise...what is not to love about a nice little quality Getzen with outstanding quality and a valve cluster to die for...
and of course the frugel little Yamaha Cornet. Both must utilize a deep V Cup mouthpiece for that warm-fat-dense voicing that makes it all worth-while nallthat jazz.

[ This Message was edited by: BADBOY-DON on 2003-10-13 12:17 ]

_dcstep · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:39 am Post subject:

The Monette flumpets and cornets look amazingly similar. (Looks like the bell flare is the main difference, but the cornet bell is still bigger than on the average cornet).

Do Monette cornets sound like "real" cornets more so than the Monette trumpets sound like "real" trumpets? You know what I mean. The Monette trumpets are dark and flugelish sounding to me. (Yes, I've heard them in live performance by skilled players). Are the cornets even darker? If the cornets sound like "real" cornets, then which would you compare and contrast it to?

This is a serious question. I understand that Monette is trying to change the way trumpet-like horns sound, and that's ok by me, but I'm wondering if he's also trying to create a new cornet sound also.

Best regards,

Dave

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[ This Message was edited by: dcstep on 2003-10-13 12:40 ]

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:20 am Post subject:

Hummm?
To answer your question...truly like apples and apples..
expensive wine and cheap rot gut wine....or expensive cornets and cheapie cornets....
all the above...NONE ARE CREATED EQUAL. and in truth...even though I didn't have my Besson with me at the time that I tried Adre's cornet or that "Mini Flumpet appearing 900 series cornet.
The first impression for both instruments...was just how in tune and easy to blow, both these cornets seem to sound and play?
Andre is small in physical stature but has a beautiful bold and dense sound.
Just one thing that really stood out in my lame brain about both these cornets, in comparison....to my old Besson Sov.
A. When you push lots of volume and air through these Monette horns...neither M horn had that strange almost "wailing or weird shrillness (that my Besson's tone seems to exhibit at fff.---where they begin to sound like more like a trumpet than a cornet,when one trys project and over-push the envelope.
The late and beautiful genius Ruby Braff mentioned in one interview,that when playing cornet, he too, and other cornet players should always strive to stay in control of their volume and to be cautious of not over-pushing the volume up and into that "zone of shrillness."
Andre seemed to know just exactly how far he could push that envelope as his tone seem to remain dense, warm and musical whether playing soft or loud. Andre also seemed to be more aware than many trumpet players as he used CONTRASTS in his playing. He, like Segei' N. never seems to show any signs of stress or "needing air"
In watching both these players, one marvels at just how easy both seem to utilize their use of breathing...It is almost impossible to notice any intake of air while they are playing. Just like in talking..they seem to just let the music flow, almost endlessly without effort.

When I made this comment to Andre' he smiled and said. "Mr. Shultz, I try to know my music so well that I know exactly where I need to take extra air and exactly when I can cruise, like on overdrive. Not unlike a car, I roll and coast downhill with the flow of the music and give it the gas...when I need to climb that hill to the more intense fff areas. However, my teacher has always encouraged me to utilize CONTRASTS which is the so called secret of my success in performance. Stress is the enemy so proper breathing is truly the horsepower and engine behind the cornet playing wheel.
Not bad advice, be it a cornet player, a Flumpet or flugelhorn or trumpet player, right?
This is the one of the most over-looked items in playing the trumpet. 99% ALL BLOW TOO DARNED LOUD, especially when the music calles for pppppppp!!!!!!

In truth, the full radius bells of Dave Monette seem to project betta...even though they almost look like toy trumpets that have been SMASHED DOWN HARD ON THEIR BELLS...That noticably FLAT after the radius on most Monette horns, in truth...do look a bit damaged and unfinished, when you think about it.
Whether or not that contributes anything to the projection or to the density of sound...and also the double sheppards crook isn't really anything new, as many other cornets and trumpets have utilized that design also??? But in truth, the Monette horns....are truly another breed of cat!!! Sheldon or plain old Alley-Cat??

When it comes to great cornet sound...hummmm??? Many ways to skin a cat, huh?

_dcstep · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:07 pm Post subject:

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject:

Dave
Ha! I like your rendition of that nasal-pinchy-shrill sound that some cornets seem to exhibit and can often occur when being over-pushed in the upper register at too high volumes.
As much I I truly love and admire the talent and music of Warren Vache'...in many many of his recordings, you will hear this kind of voicing example. He has huge fat-dense full quality cornet voicing...and an equally huge dense and powerful upper register...that hammers, but on some passages.....I too "winch at that sound when he really puts volume out! Personally, to me...yes, many trumpets love and thrive on that kind of power. But not too many cornets..without becoming INSTANT TRUMPETS...
For example a friend here at work has an old straight model early 40's Bach cornet...that when pushed..simply changes its stripes...and becomes a trumpet....but sound absolutely beautiful,when you keep the volume in check.
What a pleasure that 900 Cornet was when you push that horn. One can tell that it retains more of a flug. sound...however Andre's little tranditional Monette...also brightens very much like a trumpet when pushed over its envelope...but Ardre seemed to be able to "Stay within that fine line" of good taste in sound...by not going there.

So with that in mind...I can not say how my Besson Sov'would have compared to Andres little Monette cornet (on a side by side taste test) but I have a pretty strong notion...that Andre's Monette would definately produce a better and more musical sound. The bell size and shape might just be the difference...also the Monette seemed far more "acoustically aerodynamic than my my busy multi-plumbed old Besson with the teenie-tiny lead pipe etc?
Without question, one could easily hear how nicely the intonation was on both Monette horns...compared to my indiviual bent-n-beat up road rage Besson?

However...In this lifetime,with my meager talent and chops.. my old Besson will have to do and is betta' that I truly deserve...anyhoo?

[ This Message was edited by: BADBOY-DON on 2003-10-13 16:44 ]

_dcstep · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:03 pm Post subject:

Warren Vache' is my absolute favorite cornetist. I had the chance to visit with him at a jazz party years ago and saw that his mouthpiece was huge and deep. I didn't get the particulars, BUT from casual observation I noted that it was way bigger and deeper than anything I was playing at the time (probably a Mount Vernon Bach 1 1/2C back then). Anyway, I felt like much of Warren's not-so-attractive high range might have been attributable to that mouthpiece as opposed to his horn. He hardly ever played up there an focused mostly in gorgeous middle and low register. He had a Getzen back then, but he's go through a number of horns subsequently. I've heard Warren play live for literally hours and I've got about ten CDs and albums featuring him.

Anyway, back to Monette, I'd rather play a cornet that converted to a trumpet-like tone if pushed too hard. I'm not too keen on the Monette trumpet tone, but their cornets may be something else. Thanks for the input.

Dave
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rafterman · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:01 pm Post subject:

Don't forget the initial question regarding cornets of the Kanstul, Bach, Besson, Benge, ZeuS type - new cornets a player who wanted a pro horn would consider if he/she didn't want to go the e-bay or vintage route. Of course, around the Monette level, it would be interesting to hear about the WT, Lawler, etc.

trumpetmike · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:18 pm Post subject:

Best cornet?
Well, I must admit that I do love my Meastro. It is one of the more popular UK brass band makes. Gorgeous sound, almost no effort required.
The finest of the traditional style UK cornets I have played has been the Besson Prestige. If I hadn't already got the Yamaha, I would have one of these.

tom turner · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:26 pm Post subject:

Best cornet?

Geez, I haven't tried the Monette cornets but have tried just about everything else.

Hands down . . . the Wild Thing! I wasn't in the market for another great cornet (I already had a real nice, restored Boston 3-Star) when I first played the Wild Thing cornets. After playing a gold short model . . . I HAD to buy it. The horn is THAT GOOD!

I've had it now for 16 months or so . . . and it's like still being on a honeymoon. What a horn!

Tom Turner

PS: After being argueably Flip's biggest fan (sorry Don, I might be even a bigger fan than you), Flip asked me to represent his horns in America. So . . . if you have questions, shoot me an e-mail. Ya gotta try one to believe 'em!

You can contact me at: turner05@bellsouth.net

atom_anderson · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:33 pm Post subject:

I've heard good things about the Courtois cornets, although I haven't played one myself.

Downunder · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:38 am Post subject:

I currently play a silver Wild Thing cornet and it is a beautiful instrument. I use it in a brass band and play in a section with a Benge, a Smith-Watkins and a Kanstul. None of us have trouble blending together.

I have recently started a Zeus here in Australia and have now had the opportunity to play both a silver and a Copper Zeus cornet. I will be posting an independent review of these cornets on this forum soon, however anyone thinking of a new cornet should seriously consider one of these. The consistency of sound over the whole range is outstanding, slotting is excellent and the build quality is excellent. After playing them the prices then give you a nice surprise! They are much cheaper than a Sovereign, Yamaha Maestro, Bach etc and yet I'd have one over those cornets any day. As soon as I get some more here I'll be playing one myself. At the moment I can't get the one I have away from the people who are "trying it out"!!

Stephen Williams

horndevil · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:17 am Post subject:

I have a B&S Challenger II cornet that really works well for brass band. It is more stable that the Besson Sovreign if you need to push the volume and has extremely good intonation throughout the range. Only top A needs to be back-fingered, the rest sits well without the need to bend into tune. Triggers are required at the bottom, but we all should know our instruments well enough to make this an automatic response. At £150 - £200 below the cost of a Sovreign, and half the price of the Prestige, this is a serious contender. When choosing this cornet, I was able to play test it with 2 Sovreigns, a Prestige, Yamaha Maestro and Courtois. The Prestige was the only other that stood above the rest, but for the extra money, but it wasn't that much better than the Challenger, and the sound tended to break up at extreme volume that is sometimes demanded in a brass band. It is more of a soloist instrument, not as well suited to section playing as some others here.

Having said this, all the instruments tested are good or very good
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Ian Barnes

OldKid · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2003 Posts: 135

At the risk of getting flamed, my fav horn is my Bach 181S Strad long cornet. It's just a lot easier to play than anything else I've tried.
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BADBOY-DON · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:51 am Post subject:

Hey....Old Kid!
I can't see you being FLAMED about your Bach long cornet. Ray Klein next door has a beautiful old Strad long model. It plays sooooo sweet in both the sound and its ease of blow. But again....but when you light the fire to it. It can cut through with dazzeling brillance, but to me...with the mouthpiece that I tried it with...A Bach 3c when its played with the pedal to the brass metal...it lights up brightly like a trumpet. Actually a bit to bright for my demented ear-balls:)

WARREN VACHE...YES! WHAT A TREASURE!!!!!!!!

A note about Warren Vache' From an E mail that I received from him when I sent a complimentary rose-throwin' E mail....telling him that I loved the way he backs a singer and on another CD, (if my lame memory serves me) JAZZ ON A RAINY DAY!

I TOO....AM A HUGE....HUGE WARREN VACHE' FAN! GADS! HE IS SOOOOOO MUSICALLY GLIB!~ I play his improv over and over. He has such a stylish way of embellishing notes and phrasing. He is such an under-recorded genius.
check out the book Jazzparty. Nice info and photos...with Ray and other truly gifted cornetist.

http://www.jazzparty.com (hope that link still flies?)

He mentioned that he was playing a Smith-Watkins at this time but had been experimenting with other horns and he too mentioned that the CHALLENGER was a huge bang for the buck.

Ray Vega, also plays both the Challenger trumpet...as well as his rotary valved Yamaha...but his true love with ballads is the cornet or his old Bach Flugel. Ray uses that flug simply because of its huge velvety dense mid-register and projects easier than with his cornet.
If Ray is lurking...(he too, is a true TRUMPET-GEEK! )

Tell us more about the cornets you have been kickin' brass treads with?

TOM TURNER...
Isn't their something Biblical..about teasing your brothers keeper...causing me to sin, by coveting thy neighbors Boston 3 Star nallthatjazz.

[ This Message was edited by: BADBOY-DON on 2003-10-14 10:19 ]