Schilke Berillium Bell

Redhothorn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Dec 2001 Posts: 1173

Could someone in the know explain the advantages and disadvantages of a berillium bell (Schilke Trumpets)?

pedaltonekid · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1711

For a complete description refer to the schilke loyalist website.

The "beryllium" bronze bells are no longer truly Beryllium because it is considered a hazardous material - more so for the craftsmen at the shop than the player. They were notoriously thin and easily dented - especially the tuneable bell models.

The bells that are currently sold as beryllium are mostly copper ( I think) and are available by special order and comes standard on the P5-4 piccolo trumpet.
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fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 5:56 pm Post subject:

Private message drunkiq and he can tell you.
You can also do a google search for Schilke Loyalist and you can read his page. Lots of good information on his page!

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[ This Message was edited by: fuzzyjon79 on 2003-09-01 21:00 ]

drunkiq · Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:13 pm Post subject:

ok, ok...

quote from loyalist page:

As an option on most of their horns, Schilke makes available what they labeled as a "beryllium bronze" bell which were originally made by Kiefer in Elkhart, Indiana, and are now made by Anderson Plating.

While these may have had trace elements of beryllium at one time, but because of the toxicity of beryllium, for more than 15 years, according to a former employee, the bells have been made of pure copper, fabricated electrolytically, i.e., the same way that silver plating is applied.

This means that these bells are made without seams. They are indicated with a small "B" stamped into the ferrule on the bell tail closest to the first valve casing. The beryllium bell has been the standard bell on the Schilke P5-4 since the early 80s. The name 'beryllium bronze" has continued in use, even though it is inaccurate, because the company did not wish to endure the confusion created by a change in terminology.

end quote

they aslo make a standard weight copper bell used on the b5 and b6 - so don't get them mixed up...

I have a medium "beryllium bronze" bell from the mid 70's and a 2003 large "beryllium bronze" bell that i now use (converted my '74 B3b to a X3Lb)

the diffenece in my older bell and the moden one besides the ond one being toxic to make is the weight...

For the past several years, they have weighed anywhere from 7-9 ounces (9 being the heaviest made). The ones made back in the 60s and 70s weigh less, around 6-7 ounces. Bill Chase had a 6 1/2 ounce bell and one was made for Jon Faddis that was even lighter, around 4-5 ounces. - heck my medium one from the 70's is so thin that you can push your finger from inside the bell and see it poping out on the outside of the bell.. you can put your thumb on one side a finger on the other and wiggle the metal in that area.

my understading is that it was normal to bust a bell or two when mounting one of these bells on the trumpet - it is my speculation that this is one of the reasons they now weigh a couple of ounces more than the old days....

my old bell has two memory issues:

1. 2 ripples/twists - looks like the bell was grabbed and turmed counter clockwise... I hav had it fixed a ton of times! - it usualy come back if it is in the CASE and pressue is applied to the case (like puting it in an overhead bin on an airplaine)

2. a small dent that look look like someone pushed their pinky nail to hard into it... they can heat it up and roll it out, but afer it cools the issue pops right back into place! - also i had to be carful about trumpet stands - becaus of the small taper of the medium bell, some stands would actally dent the bell all the way around because the top was thicker than the bell...

so the other cons - my old bell is bright, real bright! - use deeeeeep mouthpices to blend with other - great for jazz though - could use a bach 3c and you would think i had a bent dime...

but that was my old bell... .

lets move up to to 2003 - my large bell verion - it weighs more - has a big fat sound - can blend with anyting and the deapth of my moupice is now a little smaller to pull it off for legit work...

the advantages of both - a lighter horn responds faster... a lot faster... a bach feels like i not only getting a work out but feels very, very sluggish in comparison...

another advatage - projection - man i am not sure what is up with these light bells but they just keep going... the loyalist site has some math to back this up, showing that it loses less volume over distance.... also it seems to produce more of those brilliant overtones even with a deep cup mouthpice... maybe because it vibrates more becase it is so light - helps with the resonance in your sound.. btw the tunable bell option helps with this more too...

would i go back to a standard weight copper or yellow brass bell - NO WAY! - I adjust my sound with my mouthpieces and retain the flexbility!

if you have not tired one, try to find a buddy with one, the new ones are not as light but are still super light, at first the slots will see very loose due to the weight... but play on it a few minutes, they go back to yours and you will see how sluggish is seems.... then rethink which bell you are using.... remember a depper cup will take out the extra brightness....

Currently I am in bad health but managed to prove a point on heavy weight mpcs buy recording a scale... if you ask me my X3Lb with my mouthpice setup would blend with anything check out that there, jazz or legit - here is the page:

http://www.geocities.com/drunkiq/heavy_vs_light.htm

sorry i dont have any screaming stuff recorded for you - the bell tends to give up there too in my opinion.... maybe when i feel better in a few weeks

if it does not cost you a dime then give it a try - if you are in the austin area then email me and maybe you can come visit and play a couple of licks on mine...

all the best

-marc

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My Schilke X3Lb in Satin Gold

[ This Message was edited by: drunkiq on 2003-09-01 23:16 ]

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Big sound / great projection...I have a B5Lb
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Tim80 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 1415

The Schilke B5Lb in the marketplace may be a good deal.

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

So might the B1 that the same seller has!

So it's now confirmed that the Schilke Berylium bell is produced the same way that the old Conn Coprion bell was ... electroformed wherein the copper is electrolytically deposited over a mandrel (form). That explains their ability to produce the exceptionally light wall thickness and may also be the reason that the metal has a "memory" for dents and wrinkles. Thanks for that note, Marc. Hope yer up and about soon.

oneeyedhobbit · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 10:30 am Post subject:

Just had to take you up on your comparisn offer, Marc!

In the first recording (a) I could certainly tell a difference. I'm not sure which was which, but the second scale sounded weaker in the low register; if I had to guess I'd peg that as the 13a4. But the second recording, I really had a devil of a time deciding. Then again, I didnt listen qutie as closely, but they were much closer than in the first. (Btw, you were doing this at home, right? The hospitals I've been in would never ever let me touch my trumpet!)

Redhothorn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Dec 2001 Posts: 1173

Hey Guys ...

Thanks for the great educational input! I am currently playing a Schilke B-1 with a reeves Alignment; however, would like to try a tuneable bell in the future and a tad smaller horn like the B6? I am very happy with My Schilke/Monette LT mouthpiece combination. Thank for taking the time.

Rusty

rich · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:58 pm Post subject:

I had a tunable bell schilke (don't remember which model) with the berillium bell back in the mid 70's... ordered direct from the shop and had to wait a couple of months... anyway, I can remember exactly where I was standing when I dropped it.... had just finished playing a gig in downtown Lincoln, NE... it's about 2am... 3 or 4 from the band are outside... the horn is in a soft gig bag... and it just drops to the ground (bell first)... and, it didn't have to drop that far ... the bell couldn't have been more than 12" off the ground... BUT, that berillium bell wrinkled up like an accordian... got it repaired although it still had signs of the damage... to put another ouch into the whole story, I quite playing trumpet some years later (about 1983) and traded the schilke for a GUITAR!!

So, if any of you guys now has a tunable bell/berillium bell made in the 70's with signs of having been dropped, it's probalby my old horn.

drunkiq · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:14 pm Post subject:

yeah my '74 bell got the wrinkles (like your arcoding - see above post) not only on the overheard airplanes - but got the wrinkles like yours everytime i droped the stupid case!!!... same exact problem - that is pretty funny, almost forgot aoubt those FEW times it happened.. did your bend in the exact same way everytime after the inital problem?

I doubt yours was my horn - there have been several people i have spoken to with simular stories....

-marc

rich · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:29 pm Post subject:

I only dropped it once.

as I recall, the horn was pretty bright and loose... compared to my bach I had ... but in 1980 the bach took a hit from a desk (same gig bag) as our house blew away in the June 3, 1980 tornado. That one was NOT my fault

luckily, the Schilke was in the trunk of the car which was in another area of town where my wife was working or it would have become something worse than an accordian

GordonH · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:27 am Post subject:

For what its worth Denis Wedgwood makes his bells this way.
He told me that some of the manufactureres put a thin plating of nickel on the bell before the silver plate which increases the brightness.
Apparently you can get a very wide variation in tone just by varying the amount of copper deposited on different areas of the bell shape.

Gordon

trickg · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:41 am Post subject:

From what I have been told, pretty much all silver plated horns are plated in nickel first and then plated in silver, having something to do with the electrolysis process and silver adhering better to the nickel. Also, nickel is more durable than silver. I know that my bach has nickel under the silver because it was plain as day when the silver started to wear off at certain places on the valve casing.

As for the beryllium bells, I played one of the newer, heavier versions and it was real light and lit the horn up fast. Real fast. Pretty bright too. Given some time, I probably could have gotten used to it and maybe even liked it but I think that I was trying to over blow it because I'm so used to having to work a little harder. I've played Bachs almost exclusively for over 15 years.
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Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

It's time to repeat my posting of the website below. This shows the patterns of bell vibrations through interferometry and at different frequencies. There is no doubt that seams, discontinuities, variations in metal thickness, coatings, AND jparent metal types will affect the response of the bell (metal) vibration!

Gordon, interesting comment about electrodepositing different thickness in different parts of the bell (in a ring pattern, I assume).

I can't wait to see what they come up with when they start looking at the mouthpiece!

http://vanadium.rollins.edu/~tmoore/research2.htm

GordonH · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:55 pm Post subject:

Mine has more metal towards the bell rim.
You can seer the change over point if you look very closely.
It could be mistaken for a seam but its not.

drunkiq · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:15 pm Post subject:

hmm...

I know that after the belss are made, they are shipped back to Schike and then Schilke has to add the bell rim and put in the bend (crook) and who knows what else to finish them off.... just wonder if that has to do with it or it actually part of the design during the process....

-marc