Aperture infront of top teeth

[StupidBrassObsession]

Hullo!

How are you all?

Maybe some of you will know this problem I'm about to ask about and be able to give me some advice?

So I've been playing the trumpet on and off for quite a few years now. Almost 10 actually! Eeeep.

Anyway, Continuously for the last 5 or so years, I'll think I've finally forgotten about the trumpet and then I'll watch some clip of Sergei Nakariakov, James Morrison etc and each time I feel the overwhelming urge to play the trumpet. So I decide that "this time I'm going to make this instrument play how it is supposed to". And a couple of months of diligent and dedicated practice (3hours per day ish) later, and the problems I set out to over come are still there, causing as much trouble as ever.

The cause of most of my frustration seems that I can't seem to keep the aperture below the top teeth edge, which seems the result of certain physical features of my face:

> Long top teeth, but a comparatively short top lip.
> Short bottom teeth, but a comparatively long bottom lip.
> A cupids bow / "Tear-drop" top lip.
> A pronounced overbite. [Although I've been bringing the jaw forward to play]

If I "Say mmm" and blow, the lips meet infront of the top teeth.

If I move the lips so that they meet between the teeth opening, it seems impossible for me to keep them there for long.

My brain goes "Okay, now lets make a nice sound", which makes the lips want to pucker forward a little bit, which in turn make aperture move back infront of the top teeth, which make the lips try and pucker more to keep a path for the air, and before I know it, I'm using a stupendous amount of effort to just play one note.
Yes, I can play notes up to an F above the staff, but not with any power, consistency, or with any musicality. Nor do the registers seem to connect properly. I can gliss from low to high, but I can't play a musical phrase that goes from low to high... So I might as well not be able to play these notes at all as far as I'm concerned. They seem more like red-herrings than any sign of achievement.

Sadly, I've kept working at it for years now, trying different ways, doing different exercises, concentrating on fundamentals and mechanics, or concentrating on just making music. None of them seem to result in usable progress. I seem to have successes but maybe I'll make that slurring in the middle register start to speak properly, but then articulation stops working properly. Or x will seem to make progress, only to find that now y doesn't really work properly.

It's a nightmare of seeming-successes and enduring failure.

But so it goes around in circles. I give up for a while, then make the mistake of watching or listening to some great trumpet player or other, and again I go back to trying to make the damn instrument work.

The only way I can seem to get my lips to stay between the teeth is if I play with my jaw completely receded [Mouthpiece at 45+ degrees down from the horizontal], but then that has its own problems because my lips don't line up, and as I try to play higher, my bottom lip disappears.

Maybe there is some magic point between the two jaw positions that works, but I haven't been able to find it yet.

The only thing I can think to do now is to start again and try and make something out of this receded jaw and hope I can make it work?

Has anyone had students with this problem? Or had this problem themselves? Or any pointers for playing with such an receded jaw?
Is it still possible to develop a high register playing like that?

Any one able to offer advice before I try starting again?

Thank you!!!

p.s. A good teacher is good advice. I have tried a few skype lessons with some of them but their suggestions only worked so far. Which is why I think I'm out of options except for starting over with a receded jaw.

[crzytptman]

I suggest you take lessons with a teacher where you both are in the same space. You are throwing out a lot of descriptions and analyzations, but I think to address each one in an online forum is counterproductive. As precise as your descriptions are, they're just conjecture here.

Maybe if you reveal where you are, you can get some suggestions for a good teacher.
_________________
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- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[Pops]

There are 2 reasons why people have problems with the aperture not meeting between the teeth.

The teeth hindering the lip vibrations and mouthpiece pressure hindering the air flow.

It is "Possible" to play with the aperture on the top teeth BUT you have to reduce mouthpiece pressure to let the air out and to allow the lips to blow forward and create a cushion (so the vibrations can be free).

Without seeing you we can't prove that you have to play this way. It wouldn't be my 1st, 2nd ... choice. But it can work with serious modifications.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com

[thadjones1213]

My suggestion would be to do the following:

Without any preconceived idea of what it should look like, feel like, or do when you play different notes start a long tone routine where you put it where it is comfortable and exhale hot moist air with only breath attacks for a full breath on each note starting on G in the staff.

The goal sound only. Should be vibrant free, and feel as though the air is floating the sound.

It is paramount that you have and imagine a healthy sound. Pitch is not the goal but of course is involved, but the quality of the sound with lots of bright overtones.

Do this for 10 mins not going to any extreme registers, then take a break for 5-10.

Next you should do some lip bends following Hickman's method. It is clear and concise. Bends are a way to get in phase with the horn, finding your efficient place for the day. And I say the day because tomorrow might "feel" different but again, you are not paying attention to this, only focusing on getting that great vibrant sound.

Knowing what that sound is in real time is why a teacher is so important to have in the same room. But all people with every type of physical attributes in face can play the horn. One thing that is common is not shapes and sizes, but the unmistakable vibrant, effortless sound. This is where it starts and finishes.

Once you can not maintain that sound, rest or be done for the day.

There was an hour long Youtube clip of Sergei that is a great watch, one thing I noticed was that even on his specially designed flugel with a fourth valve, he still had so many overtones in his sound. You can also tell that he is hearing it before he plays it. Your mind can cause your body to accomplish great things with a clear enough mental concept.

All the best

[StupidBrassObsession]

Hi Thad,

Thanks for the advice thad, pops and crzytptman.

So I've started playing without correcting my overbite, or at least not much.

The sound is much better, easier and more consistent. Especially articulation!!! My tongue doesn't always feel like it's in the way anymore!
Everything except for range and endurance work much much better playing with the jaw receded.

I've been playing lots of long notes and scales and just covering the easier exercises in the various books I have. I have the Hickman book (The one with the Bends that you mentioned, Thad) but I haven't used it with this embouchure. I tried them with my old embouchure and they just made everything feel worse, but I will try them tomorrow perhaps.

At the moment, my endurance is like a 10 seconds at a time before I need to take the mouthpiece off my lips, as I can feel the muscles at the corners of my mouth start to collapse. But so long as I rest very frequently, I can still get in a good 2 or 3 hours of time spent with the instrument before it becomes totally unproductive.

My range, well it isn't actually too bad. When I'm fresh, I can still make it to high C okay playing this way, but as I tire my range drops lower and lower.

I think with some strengthening I'll be able to work range and endurance to a more suitable level.

The biggest problem I am having playing like this is that my bottom teeth aren't even, and my right front tooth protrudes and is *very* sharp and pointy.

It was never a big problem before because the mouthpiece uses to want to sit much lower, so the sharp corners didn't cause too much trouble, but now the mouthpiece rim actually sits high enough that the tooth and its sharp points now cause a problem, even with only a small amount of mouthpiece pressure.

So I'm not sure what to do about it...

You can see roughly the angle of the mouthpiece and the general shape of my teeth in this one:


and from straight on in this one.


I'm wondering if I shouldn't try and find a different place to put the mouthpiece while I'm still in the infancy of this embouchure? If I'm going to, It might as well be now.

Any suggestions?

Thanks for your help![/img]

[StupidBrassObsession]

p.s. Wowza, sorry for the terrifyingly large photos of my teeth

[Norman]

What you really need to find is a competent teacher that can help you find the right way for you.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to solve this kind of problems asking on a forum, and I know because I found out myself and I have seen quite a few people trying and failing.

You really need someone that can see you playing and that can work out the proper method of study for your specific needs.

Believe me, if you find the right teacher he will show you the way maybe even in just a few lessons. Of course it will take you a lot longer to develop, but at least you will know which way to go.
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"Don't play like a trumpeter, play like a singer!" Andrea Giuffredi
Taylor Chicago X-Lite
AR Resonance MC 40/8 Mouthpiece

[John Mohan]

Where do you live?

[Wilktone]

I would need to see you play to help you. Getting a teacher is the best advice any of us can give you right now.

[StupidBrassObsession]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply and the link!

[Wilktone]

[StupidBrassObsession]

Thanks again, Dave for your reply. Really appreciate it. And I know you can't make any recommendation etc without actually seeing anything.

By the way, I watched that video of your about the Brass Embouchure! Really interesting stuff!