Mouthpiece science?

[sean007r]

What I'm looking for is a solid answer to the age old question... am I playing on the right MP?

While I know many have the opinion that you need as many MP's as the styles you play, I'm trying to avoid this if at all possible.

I wish someone could take some measurements and say that I should play on _____ and only this or that I'll need a ____ and a _____!


I even called a MP manufacture for recommendations and was told to try a 17d4d...
This is what I'm trying to avoid!!!!!
Recommendations/opinions!

While someone like Arturo can play on one MP a 3c, others have to change as they play!
I'd like to be like Arturo, well who wouldn't, but the main thing is... I want to get over this MP stigma!

So is there ANYTHING published that will help me understand what "I" need?

p.s...
I'm sure this matters but cannot explain why... I've been told I have "full lips", by a trumpet teacher.

p.s.s...
I'm 35 male, 6'4" 240lbs and in good health
played 7 years through HS (1985) 1st/2nd chair.
Just started playing again Jan. 2001
Currently playing local Big Band and community college Jazz band.
I consider myself at a "good" HS level, but want sooooo much more.
Started with my old 3c, GREAT tone, but limited to an octave above tuning C.
I’ve Tried a 13a41, 14a4a, 7c, 5c, 5b and now, on the advice of my instructor on a 15.
The 15 gives me a fuller sound, like the 3c, but I'm back to the range issues.
Practice is limited too. Single parenthood and full time "job" fill up my tme quickly, but I play 2 hours a week with the Jazz band, 4 hours a month with the big band and 1 hour a day at home after the kids are asleep, the housework/home improvements are done.

_________________
TTFN
~iii<0 Sean 0>iii~

[ This Message was edited by: sean007r on 2002-02-03 07:52 ]

[big brian]

....

[vivace]

I love my 3c. I got all these cheater mps to get the high notes, and still couldn't do it. So I stuck with the 3c (the cushion rim 17c was uncomfortable, ironically, and the 10 1/2 c was soo small.) LAtely, I have been getting up to G's and A's (not the best tone, yet)

So stick with the 3c if it is working for you, and practice practice, practice.
_________________
"All music is folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing no song." - Louis Armstrong

[David Oulton]

Isn't mouthpiece science for selecting a mouthpiece the same science as choosing which model of car to drive? (too many factors, preferences, objectives, choices, prices, etc)

David

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-11-21 12:18 ]

[Cozy]

Ah, memories of Mpc Safaris I...II. There is no magic mouthpiece, but there are some just not meant for particular individuals.
I'd suggest no extensive safari, but sometimes it's something a few...many of us have had to get out of our systems. At least do it wisely with the counsel of a good instructor like it appears you are doing. If you have the opportunity, also play a few contenders in the environment you typically play in; e.g., concert hall, non-smoky bar?, church, etc. Also just sit in a quiet place at home and trade back and forth analyzing objectively. Ya' might even have musicians listen to various mpc's as you play, but don't let them know which is being played to keep more objectivity.
Get the safari out of the way, and enjoy. btw, I probably shouldn't try to suggest from out here in cyber space what specific mpc you should play. The Schilkes are fine mpc's. I like the idea of the 24 throat - nice sound. I prefer Callet and GR Mouthpieces, but the right "seat" as cowboys call it beats the brand every time.

Cozy
http://www.cozychops.com

Just discovered my multiple postings. I apologize to the forum...Puter was in shop. Glitchy puter backup. Grrrr.

[ This Message was edited by: Cozy on 2002-02-03 16:22 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Cozy on 2002-02-11 16:23 ]

[dbacon]

DB

[evolution]

I think you are on the right track to ask for information but especially to try lots of mpcs. The most trumpet players collect a nice bunch of mpcs on their way to the nonexisting magic bullet. IMO it's the only way to learn what fits for you. For the general choice you need information. But for the special choice you have to try the pieces of your general choice. Read the article on Roddys website: http://www.r-o-d-d-y-t-r-u-m-p-e-t.cc/

best regards

johannes

[trickg]

What I've found is that I have NEVER gotten any more range by using a different mouthpiece. What I do get by using a "cheater" as someone called called it, is that range simply comes a bit easier and I have better endurance because of it.

For what it's worth, if you are looking to improve sound, endurance and range, stay on the 3C and start doing long tones and articulation exercises, focusing on not spreading your embouchure as you go up in range. I use the articulation exercises because for me if I'm not using my air correctly, my ariculation is not clear. When that starts to clean up, it takes care of a whole bunch of other annoyances like first attacks, range, and power.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Lazarus]

I agree with TrickG. A mouthpiece has never given me range, but it has given me support and slotting. A shallow mouthpiece will not just give you this awesome range that you've never had before, but if you can control it and it works for you, it may give you that extra support you need to last through the gig. I myself am actually getting a few lead mouthpieces to try so I know where your coming from. One thing for me that doesn't work is to massively change rim size. The rim contour and shape become a glove for my lips: its gotta fit. Again, this is my opinion not fact. Thanks for reading!

--Stephen

[Andy Cooper]

First some points of agreement - the most important thing is a good sound "defined any way you wish", good intonation,and good endurance.

You may not have a problem - you have only been playing again for 1 year. Technique returns quickly - range and endurance take longer for the comeback player.

Disagreement - I have had marked improvement in range and endurance by careful selection of rim contour and backbore with horns appropriate to me. Technique and a pretty good sound I had - range and endurance I did not.

You might consider the following questions:

1. What trumpet and bore size are you playing?
2. How is your endurance? (Do you feel tired in in the center of your lips or in your facial muscles)
3. Did you have a better high register in High School.
4. Does your high register tend to go flat or sharp if you do not work to correct it?
5. Is your practice done with a tight mute (so the children can sleep)?
6. After a day or 2 layoff or at the beginning of practice, can you play above high C?
7. Does your mouthpiece rim cut or irritate your lip.
8. Even though you say you can only play up to high C, can you still hit the note after 4 hours of big band playing?

Some problems can be resolved by logging in the hours behind the horn - others require an evaluation of equipment.



[ This Message was edited by: Andy Cooper on 2002-02-03 23:32 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Andy Cooper on 2002-02-03 23:33 ]

[evolution]

I agree that you should stick with one rim size and contour if you have found a comfortable one. I would also mention to use always the same rim diameter. Otherwise the endurance suffers - IMO.
Right, that the mpc doesn't affect the range but the slotting and the endurance for a long gig can improve quite much with a fitting mpc. IMO having a constant range for long gig-hours is the most important thing about range. You need the necessary range but it is not necessary to squeak out triple high Cs. So use a comfortable mpc that gives you the good mixture of feeling, sound, endurance and range (in this order).
Another point for trying mpcs: Sometimes you have to try a new mpc for a few days of acclimation till you know if it's good or bad. IMO it's not the rim or the inner diameter you have to get used to it. Last week I tried a Bruno Tilz mpc with a very tight throat. At first I couldn't play in a proper way cause there was so much resistance and I used too much air. Now - a few practice-sessions later - it feels not bad and gives a nice endurance in the upper register cause of the throat and backbore but only after learning to back off a bit.

best wishes for your mpc-choice.

johannes

[RockyM]

Hey there,

From one full-lipped-working-full-time-parent- guy to another!

I'm playing on Mark Curry equipment. Mark is a terrific craftsman based in Reno. He not only makes excellent stuff, he's also very knowledgable.

I play his 3 series rim, and have a number of different cups depending on the need. I usually use a 3BC and a custom 3AC for orchestral playing, a 3C for concert bands or solo work...just depends on the need. Also use his 3DC & 3VC cornet pieces for a British brass band, and a shallower 3DE for any jazz or commercial work. They all sound very, very good and are really comfortable...best of all, you can get them for about $45 bucks! You can try one without spending a lot, and some places (Mouthpiece Express) will send some out for a trial run.

I decided to go to a slightly smaller rim and increase cup depth, rather than playing a huge rim which doesn't feel as comfortable on my chops.

I've found these mouthpieces to really fulfill my needs. I look for a manufacturer that makes a great rim and offers a number of cup sizes for varying needs.

He makes a full range of pieces and other stuff too. Check out his stuff on his website (www.currympc.com); you've nothing to lose, and you may find it's just the ticket!

Good luck,
Rocky

[sean007r]

to everyone...
THANKS for the GREAT posts!

to answer some specifics...

big brian
nothing specific I like/dislike about my new MP now (schilkie 15).
at first I liked the bite compared to 3c, but cannot feel the difference now.

David Oulton
Mouthpiece science is more like understanding members of the opposite sex!

Andy Cooper
1.) .460
2.) better than last year
now I can play my parts and I'm not tired at the end of rehearsal/gig, but then again, I'm only play 3rd in the big band and 2nd in Jazz
3.) HS register sucked too...
Octave above tuning C and I can still play it after a gig/rehearsal.
4.) Sharp I assume, haven't really listened lately. I saw this because it sound rather thin past C above the staff if I can get anything out at all.
5.) Rarely use a mute at all. The kids sleep upstairs and are sound sleepers
6.) yes
7.) No, I don't think so.... never had any blood and no swelling.
8.) haven't had to play 4 hours


I starting to assume a lot of things here, but the most obvious NOW is that I just SUCK!
At his point I really think my MP is the last of my concerns, but I just want to ensure it isn't making things harder than needed.

Long story short is that I've met an instructor/teacher/professional that may be the leading expert in my area for embouchure and equipment concerns. He and I will meet soon so he can eliminate any/all my questions... I hope.

Anywho...
I am getting off my MP safari soon and will start over again on the basic. What sucks most about that is I'm not getting any younger and I know where I want to be and I can't get there today!!!
_________________
TTFN
Sean
___TTT_c___/|
(_uIII_o__) |

[Murray]

I think that "mouthpiece science" is an oymoron. Think about it. Mouthpieces are designed without any knowledge whatsoever about what instrument it will be put into and who will be playing it! All of the energy that produces the actual sound on the trumpet comes from the player, NOT the mouthpiece. Furthermore, the "bionic machine" that makes the instrument sound is in a constant state of flux. If the person playing the trumpet were an actual machine, then, and only then could a mouthpiece be "scientifically designed" to match the specific instrument, and machine designed to play it. Otherwise, what does "scientically designed" mean? Let's not kid ourselves here. Playing the trumpet is not a scientific endeavor. Can instruments and mouthpieces be improved according to physical laws? Possibly. Many highly regarded instruments were produced over 60 years ago, in a period where techonology was much less advanced than it is today. What does this all mean? That everybody needs to find their own way. The art of playing an instrument will never become computerized - that is the beauty of it.

[TptProf]

Murray,
You have many valid points. The finest mouthpiece in the world is only as good as the player who has his or her chops on it.

On the other hand, today's finest automobiles are only as good as their drivers. Does that mean we should all drive cars from the 1920's? Of course not.

Certain mouthpiece manufacturers have come leaps and bounds , let's say one giant leap for mouthpieces, in the last couple of years. Would it not make sense to try to improve our performance by playing on the most technologically advanced equipment? Of course it does. Mouthpieces designed using the latest technology do play better than their ancient counterparts. That is a given. Yet it does boil down to the player.

I play mouthpieces that are the latest in design technology. Hopefully it gives me one advantage over the next person who doesn't. The only problem is it also cuts down on my excuses.
Robert Keith

[Murray]

Robert, you say, "I play mouthpieces of the latest design and technology". Fine, I can't argue with that. Maybe your mouthpiece is the finest available, the most comfortable, the easiest to play, the mouthpiece that gives you the best sound, and the cheapest, too. But as I said, it can't be scientifically designed. This was the only point that I wanted to make, and I blieve that it is indisputable. Consider yourself lucky to have found the best mouthpiece that suits your needs.

[TptProf]

Murray,
It is math and scientific theories that are used in the design of the mouthpiece I play. I have seen the process in action so I know this is not advertising hype. I have spoken to the people who have come up with the design program. The theories that are used are the same used to streamline aircraft and automobiles today. That is science. That can not be disputed.
Once again as you said earlier, it still depends on the player.
Robert Keith

[Murray]

Robert, With all due respect, I think that you have succumbed to marketing hype. Nowadays, many mouthpieces are made and designed by computers, even the lowly Yamaha. However, these companies don't claim that their mouthpieces are "scientifically designed". Why? Because you can't design a mouthpiece to fit into an equation with so many variables! Maybe you could theoretically design a mouthpiece to be "perfect" mathematically, if it were floating in a crystal box free of gravity. The moment that you start adding variables, such as a trumpet, a trumpet player, then your "scientifically designed" mouthpiece ceases to be scientific. No ifs ands or buts, that is how it is. It would be like designing an airplane without any regard to the engines! How could you say that you have a scientifically designed airplane, and leave out the most important part? Like I mentioned, if you think that your mouthpiece is great, then whom am I to say that it isn't. But when you start implying that your mouthpiece is better because of the "math and scientific theories" that you mouthpiece was designed with ( as if your mouthpiece is the only mouthpiece where somebody actually sat down and made mathematical measurements to design it) then I have to take issue with that. Fellow trumpet players and readers of this board: BEWARE of market hype.
BEWARE of the latest, innovative "design".
Chances are great that the mouthpiece that your using already is fine.
Save your money.
Look inward, nobody ever solved their playing problems by changing their mouthpiece.

[TptProf]

Murray,
I did not really intend on getting into this but here goes.
A mouthpiece can't play with a vibrating source such as lips and I agree with you that a player must look inside to improve. I believe you are CORRECT that hard work, a good practice regiment, and careful thought is the key to playing better. Now I would like to ask you a few questions.

How is the sound produced in the trumpet? Is it magic or acoustics? What is a pressure or standing wave? How is one set up in the trumpet? How does the ear hear sound? What is a pressure drop? What does the harmonic series look like for a straight cylindrical tube vs. the trumpet air column? What effect does the bell have on the harmonic series when added to a cylindrical tube? What does a mouthpiece do to the harmonic series when added to a cylindrical tube? All these answers are science. If you don't believe in science then go to the hardware store and get a straight tube. Could you play this in tune if you practiced enough? You can sell your trumpet and save lots of money. If you know the answers to these questions you will know how silly that sounds.

Lets change gears, what about technology in sports?

With that said why do they wear new sports gear at every Olympics? To go faster! Does it work? Yes, records keeping getting broken. Look back to the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's, do any of these records related to speed still remain? I assume most have been broken through the use of technology in training, medicine, and equipment. It is true that if I wore the same gear as today's Olympians, I would not break any records. Perhaps just a few bones.
There lies your point and it is well taken. That certainly does not mean that technology was not used to improve the gear itself.

To ignore technology is to close our eyes to the future. You may be happy to close yours but don't speak for others. As trumpet players we are competitive by nature and will use whatever advantage to get to the next level.
Hopefully everyone will take your point so I will have less competition. Please DON'T use technology so I can have this advantage to myself.

Beware the future is here, ignore it so I can get all the gigs.

Robert Keith