Range and powerful sound through embouchure nodal points

[Mark Curry]

Given the nature of the embouchure in motion under load, there must certainly be more movement than simply in/out, or even side to side.

the Konica Minolta Golf swing analyzer- you know the camera on TV that shows the golf ball and swing. Surely a camera of that caliber could help us identify the motion involved. Heck, a golf ball only stays on the clubface 4/100,000 seconds and you can see that pretty clearly on TV.

Rig up some fiber optic camera, drill it into a mpc and we could probably explain and identify sound and playing characteristics. It would probably turn out that each of us has a unique resonance pattern visible in the aperture. Probably as individual as fingerprints.

More evidence that Golf benefits Trumpet Playing!

Peter Kostis may have a second career in Trumpet Embouchure Analysis.

mc
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[tptmed]

I'm out.

[spitvalve]

This is an example of paralysis by analysis. If I tried to think about all this stuff while I played I wouldn't be able to play.
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[JRoyal]

this is insane......

[mcamilleri]

Yes, it is insane. However, trying to correct insanity with logic is usually pointless. Just because Easter is coming up is no reason to chase the white rabbit down the hole to wonderland.

If anyone is insane enough to try taking videos of the lips in motion on high notes then a triggered strobe light and any ordinary camera should do the trick. My money is on the embouchure for the hypothetical strong double high C (understanding that 99.9% of trumpet players can't do it) being a smaller version of the embouchure for a strong high C (which maybe 50% of trumpet players can actually do).

Michael
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[etc-etc]

The pictures of the oscillating vocal chords are rather similar to the model of a string clamped on two ends. The fundamental frequency of such string is



If one decreases the tension in embouchure, as low fundamental frequency of vibration as necessary can be achieved (pedal notes). While converse is possible (increasing the frequency of the fundamental by increasing tension) it is not the most efficient mechanism of generating higher frequencies. A more efficient way is to excite harmonics of the fundamental. This can be done without changing the tension, mass or length - any of the harmonics will form a standing wave.

I recall my saxophone teacher saying that the embouchure tension should be the same (steady) for all notes regardless of the register. I have been using the method of steady tension both for saxophone and trumpet, quite successfully, but without fully understanding how it works. Now finally these words are making sense not only in the practice, but also in theory.

P.S. The standing wave in the horn has the same frequency spectrum as the embouchure, yet the wavelengths in them will be vastly different due to different density of the medium. For example, bass voice singers have the lowest note of E2=82 Hz - (speed of sound in the air = 330 m/s divided by 82 Hz gives 4 meters) - would you imagine their vocal chords are 4 meters (yards) long?

[John Mohan]

[etc-etc]

Answering Richard's question "why you assume".

By clamping on the embouchure one is going to have only a small part of it oscillate rather than entire body. To get the same sound intensity, the small part would have to oscillate with a larger amplitude, causing more wear and tear. If you spread the vibration over entire embouchure, with nodal points appearing as a result, you will be able to play with the same sound intensity, but with a smaller amplitude of oscillation on the lip.

Clamped embouchure is used by many trumpeters, but it is inefficient. Clamping on the lips as one ascends could be one of the reasons why most trumpeters never get to play the double C, or even anything above high C - their sound thins out as they ascend.

In the past, much attention was given to criticize Arban's statement "smile as you ascend" - smiling increases tension, and allows playing higher, but is inefficient in the long run. Now it is time to part with its antagonist - the clamping approach. Indeed, our lips are more resilient under compression than under tension, but either is not the way to go. Use entire embouchure, ascend by utilizing the harmonic modes of the embouchure and nodal points -- and sky will be the limit.

[Matt Graves]

Showing nodes on vocal chords demonstrates the fact that as vocalists are not concerned with where, how many, and what the nodes are present on their vocal chords (or even concerned about wether there are such things as nodes), brass players also need not be concerned with it. So how would you optimize the state of your "lip nodes"?

Why, through the concepts taught in the Claude Gordon approach, my friend, of course!

My mother-in-law is a first rate, "operatically-trained" vocal teacher here in Brooklyn. Does she teach her students to be concerned about your "nodes"? Not at all.

My educated guess is that if you scientifically studied your idea, you would find that "repeatable results of optimal lip node state for trumpet playing" are a result of consistent application of certain practice principles like those taught by Claude Gordon. Chest Up, Big Breath, Breathing Exercises, High Mouthpiece Placement, Pedals, "K Tongue Modified", Flexibility Exercises, etc. all carried out in a very consistent, systematic fashion over a long period of practice and development.

Claude's "Forget About the Lip" really means "the role of the lip is to vibrate properly as a result of all the other CG concepts". In other words, don't put the cart before the horse.
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[etc-etc]

Matt,

I completely agree - HOW does one make the lip work most efficiently is indeed taught by Claude Gordon.

I am merely saying that an efficiently working embouchure will have the nodal points in the high range - and that observation could be used to monitor or help embouchure development.

Thanks for encouragement!

Here are some quotes from Claude Gordon:

* "Big breath, chest up!"
* "Hit it hard, and wish it well."
* "Brass playing is no harder than deep breathing."
* "Watch the tongue."
* "The air does the work. The tongue channels the pitch."
* "Let the air save your lip."
* "Let the air do the work."
* "Rest as much as you play."
* "Lift fingers high, strike valves hard."
* "Don't stop where I have, but go further."
* "You could have a lip strong enough to lift that piano and still not be able to play a low C!"

[kalijah]

Matt wrote:

[MrOlds]

This has me thinking, which is admittedly dangerous.

If there are two nodal points, one at each end of the vibrating air column, and one nodal point is somewhere down the length of the tube, where is the other nodal point? At the lips? Certainly not multiple places along the vibrating aperture at right angles to the wavefront. But where exactly is the air column not vibrating (the nodal point)?

If I were to speculate (which is why TH is so cool), I'd say the other terminal node is where the expelled air, meets the returning wave front, which could be in front of the lips (in the cup), behind the lips (inside the mouth) or between the lips during the time that the aperture is open.

If the node is actually at the aperture when it is open, does this mean that the vibration of the lips is an unfortunate byproduct of them being too close together as the wavefront buffets them around? Could it be that the most efficient embochure would be one where the lips do not vibrate at all, or at least where the aperture remains open the longest?

Fire away!

[kalijah]

The first node of the vibrating air column past the mp cup is at the mp throat. The exact position has some variance with frequency but probably not much. The pulsing aperture is definitely NOT at a node.

[crzytptman]

kalijah wrote:

[kalijah]

How so?

[Matt Graves]

Kalijah, remember when I asked you long ago if you ever read ANY of Claude's books? Did you ever get around to actually reading from his actual writing? It doesn't seem you have based on the way you reacted to what I wrote above.

Have you at least read through Gordon's "Brass Playing..." yet?
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Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
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BAC Custom Dream Trumpet

[DR]

If I remember correctly there was a trombonist from New York that preached something like this


perhaps you should contact him

I forgot his name though, but if you roam through trumpetmaster forum you will notice his topics

the name of topic was "breakthrough" or something like that

I must admit that 90% of people find him ridiculous, but there COULD be something in his theory

[etc-etc]

[JRoyal]

a few ideas:

1) Know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis.
2) Until your idea does become theory, the burden of proof is on YOU, not the other way around as suggested in this thread.
3) Even if there are nodal points, causation and correlation are different things.
4) Even if there is causation, a good trumpet teacher could easily tell this by the sound( ie simply hearing a person, thus making the need to even know if this or true or not purely irrelevant.
5) Freezing a picture of vocal chords in no way give you any idea about what is really going on, nor do the analogies presented, none of them are comparable to the trumpet and the way it works.
6) Even if set nodal points do exist there would be zero way to control them, this is like watching a flag in the breeze and trying to control how and where it folds, etc…


this thread is bad science, worst logic, for something that even if true has no bearing on how we play, or learn to play……

[kehaulani]

OY GEVALT! This is the kind of stuff that screwed my head up totally when I was first in college. So much so, that my playing went downhill each semester. "Paralysis from analysis".

The best lessons I ever had were from a first-call LA trumpeter Bob Fleming, who's philosophy was the old axiom, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

"Hey Bob, what's the correct position for the right hand?"
"Hold it like you've got a tennis ball in it."

"Hey, Bob, what's the right way to expel air?"
"Cough."

"Hey Bob, my arm hurts when I hold it that way."
"Don't hold it that way."

(OK, I stole the last one, but you get the point.)
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