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How to control brass tarnishing?


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laurent
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: How to control brass tarnishing? Reply with quote

Hi!


I now own a brushed raw brass horn, and I'm noticing that it tarnishes quickly but not really evenly: yellow-dark background color with some brown marks all over the horn - grey marks where I put the hands...

I don't want to avoid tarnishing on my horn but I would like to have it more controled, even, and if possible stabilized where I put the hands!

I think there's some chemical products that convert brass tarnishing in a durable (and even?) colored coating, and I guess it could be a great solution...


Experiences, thoughts, advises?


Thanks!
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just a thought and I don't know if this will work. But, you might consider storing the horn out of the case on a stand. I have a cornet with a raw silver bell and store it in the case and I have not had any tarnish after ~ 4 years. So, the unevenness in tarnish may have to do with the entire horn not being evenly exposed to O2.
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

laurent wrote:
... I now own a brushed raw brass horn, and I'm noticing that it tarnishes quickly but not really evenly: yellow-dark background color with some brown marks all over the horn - grey marks where I put the hands...

I think there's some chemical products that convert brass tarnishing in a durable (and even?) colored coating, and I guess it could be a great solution...


Try having it polished and lacquered. You'll have no more [uneven] tarnish and your hands will smell better too .
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: How to control brass tarnishing? Reply with quote

laurent wrote:
Hi!


I now own a brushed raw brass horn, and I'm noticing that it tarnishes quickly but not really evenly: yellow-dark background color with some brown marks all over the horn - grey marks where I put the hands...

I don't want to avoid tarnishing on my horn but I would like to have it more controled, even, and if possible stabilized where I put the hands!

I think there's some chemical products that convert brass tarnishing in a durable (and even?) colored coating, and I guess it could be a great solution...


Experiences, thoughts, advises?
Thanks!


When I got my Bravura it looked like this....

It is now something like this...

It is probably more even now than the last photograph...it very soon started to look as you describe...very blotchy but gradually the others parts of the horn caught up to yield a more even patina.... I did nothing ...just let nature and time have it's way. Some people can't stand a new horn that looks old... I personally like it. I don't think I would mess with the tarnish process...never ending game. If you don't like it you can always have a horn lacquered, gold or silver plate...... but you already know that and that is a debate that rages every day here...

Walter
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laurent
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys for your responses!


Well, I really like the aspect of brushed raw metal but was somewhat desappointed by the way my horn began to tarnish, acquiring a blotchy aspect so soon and so quickly!


In fact the only thing I really don't like are the dark grey marks, so I daily erase or attenuate them with vinegar.
I hope this technique will allow the horn to get a rather clear patina, but if not, the pictures you've posted Walter, demonstrate that my HT3 will look nice anyway!
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Geodude
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to re-think your daily application of vinegar. It is acetic acid. Even though it is a pretty mild acid, I suspect its application is a source of finish removal that you do not really want to inflict on your horn, particularly since it has a brushed finish where the minute brush scratches result in more reactive surface area for the acid to attack.

You might try an application of a thin coat of wax to see if it might help things age a bit more gracefully/evenly. Rennaissance Wax has a good rep with furniture conservation folks. Straight car wax (i.e. without cleaners or polish!!) would probably do the same thing.

You might also check - I think 3M makes Tarnishield for brass. Pretty sure the polish is supposed to retard the development of tarnish in addition to removing what has already developed. The horn will change colors more slowly but it should still develop the color you are after. I cannot say if you'll get an even patina or it will just take longer to develop the same issue you are currently having. You might hunt for a disposable guinea pig horn for your testing so that you don't regret experimenting with your new baby.

Good luck!

Barney
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roynj
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer a tarnished horn to be left alone to darken (albeit unevenly) over time. With enough time, the thing will turn brown like an old penny. In the meantime, you can put a light coating of wax (not pledge, but real wax, such as carnuba wax for cars), which will help to control the finish from being too blotchy. Pledge is a good product too, but use it only on lacquered horns please. That's been my experience of what works. One of the things I have seen woodworkers do is to place their wood into a box with a UV "black light". This will quickly darken the wood. I have no idea if this will work on brass, but I am thinking that it might. Some of you chemists out there might comment.
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geodude wrote:
You might want to re-think your daily application of vinegar. It is acetic acid. Even though it is a pretty mild acid, I suspect its application is a source of finish removal that you do not really want to inflict on your horn, particularly since it has a brushed finish where the minute brush scratches result in more reactive surface area for the acid to attack.

Ditto on the acid use. I would suggest that you not be using an acid to try to "smooth out" the patina. I have never had a raw brass horn - hope to be getting one soon - but feel like the patina will blend over time, much like Walter's horn. BTW - very nice horn Walter.
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joe7red
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: protecting raw brass Reply with quote

a light coat of high quality carnuba based auto wax every six months or so.
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingSilverSonic wrote:
Geodude wrote:
You might want to re-think your daily application of vinegar. It is acetic acid. Even though it is a pretty mild acid, I suspect its application is a source of finish removal that you do not really want to inflict on your horn, particularly since it has a brushed finish where the minute brush scratches result in more reactive surface area for the acid to attack.

Ditto on the acid use. I would suggest that you not be using an acid to try to "smooth out" the patina. I have never had a raw brass horn - hope to be getting one soon - but feel like the patina will blend over time, much like Walter's horn. BTW - very nice horn Walter.


Thanks Richard..I am really enjoying it....... for the first couple of months I would look at it every day to see if the patina had spread and was even....in the end I just left it and time sorted out the look.

Walter
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be patient this is brass we are talking about not raw iron.........It takes time to oxidize it is not as reactive as steel and iron. It will all catch up sooner or latter.
I do not think their is any material coating like you suggest. Artisans would love it if their was. I have combed the internet for such a coating and have done a lot of research on sights that cater to artists that make crafts out of copper,brass,bronze. Plus if such a coating did exhist it would convert the oxidized material to something probably quit ugly. The rust conversion stuff turns the rust to a black colored substance not exactly what you would want on a trumpet!
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huggadiggaburr
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I have a silver plated Bach Strad that I'm interested in getting stripped to raw brass (which I know can be an extensive process due to how they go about plating silver horns). Any ideas you could share w/me on the "pros" VS. "cons" on this would be helpful?

Thanks,
Jared
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

huggadiggaburr wrote:
I have a silver plated Bach Strad that I'm interested in getting stripped to raw brass (which I know can be an extensive process due to how they go about plating silver horns). Any ideas you could share w/me on the "pros" VS. "cons" on this would be helpful?

Welcome to the TH. I believe that it is going to have to be buffed off, which is time consuming and will remove some metal. I personally would not have a silver horn buffed to raw brass but would sell the current horn and look for a lacquered equivalent and then have it easily stripped.
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huggadiggaburr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Richard,

Thanks for the info...the problem is, I love the way this horn plays! With how inconsistant the newer Bach's can be, this horn is a diamond in the ruff! It's super open in all registers, yet can really scream and "sizzle" on the top, but can mellow out really nice when needed! People that I've talked to that have had a horn stripped have all said that horn responds quicker than one that's lacquered. I just don't know if I can justify buying another horn for the sake of stripping it...thoughts?

Thanks,
Jared
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laurent
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I believe you're right about the risks induced by the daily use of vinegar: I wonder if the dark grey marks where I put my hands are not produced precisely by acid action...

So for the moment I will let the horn naturally tarnish, but in the mean time I will look for Renaissance wax, 3M Tarni Shield for brass and maybe a good carnuba wax as well - just for if I change my mind!

And protecting valve casings with the right product should be useful too...

Thanks!
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Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD.
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laurent
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

huggadiggaburr wrote:
People that I've talked to that have had a horn stripped have all said that horn responds quicker than one that's lacquered.


There's a huge difference between lacquer and silver plate!

A horn lacquered may have a response somewhat slower than if it were in raw brass, but as far as I know raw brass and silver plate vibrate pretty the same.
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Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD.
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RogersBrass
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't send this post off into a "silver vs. raw brass" or "how to strip silver thread".

The raw brass look is gaining such popularity now, we have a good topic just with what the OP is asking.

I'll add a few thoughts:

There is a book available used by artists that work with bronze, brass, and copper. I do not have the verbatim title in front of me, but I have read it. It is like a cook book for a variety of effects with raw metals using chemical formulas. It is not for the casual person..it is intended for shops and studios that work with chemicals. It is available in many libraries, or can be ordered online from all the book sources.

If you google "patination of metals" you should get a list of informational sources. The title of the book is something like "Patination and Colorization of Metals".

I like the raw brass look. I am finding new horns, and restored vintage horns that look like a piece of glossy cheap plastic to be unattractive...but that is just a personal thought.

Regarding the warnings against the use of vinegar for touching up the patination of the horn...there is no harm in using vinegar for that purpose.
Once the patination evens out the vinegar use would not really be needed...but even with continuous vinegar cleaning, it would take 500 years to cause any harm...and that would be from rubbing it with a cloth, not using the vinegar.

There are several topics being responded to here..how to make the patination even....how to slow it down...how to speed it up...how to stop it...and why do it.

If you have a raw brass horn...and do nothing..it will just happen..but with a different result for each person that just lets it happen.

Also polished raw brass..and brushed raw brass..will arrive at different results. If you like brushed raw brass..and want it to look new all the time..get it lacquered...otherwise let it do its own thing.

I can give a hint on what to do if you want to try the touch up method with a mild acid like vinegar..use cotton balls, and blot the surface..do not rub it..then let it dry..you can wash it with a dish soap solution once in awhile.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few years ago, I treated a raw brass horn with "Brass Black", a product commonly used on firearms. The more times I applied it, the darker the horn became, and it seemed to give the brass a somewhat protective coating. I eventually tired of it and polished it off (with no apparent damage to the horn)...eventually, I had the horn lacquered. Here's what the Brass Black looked like, one application to a fully polished horn:




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huggadiggaburr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Laurent,

Have you ever had a silver horn stripped? Just want to know if it's worth investigating further or if I should just leave it alone...the horn is definately a screamer!

Thanks,
Jared
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conte72
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:19 pm    Post subject: How to control brass tarnishing? Reply with quote

I've had good luck with the following method:

1. Polish the raw brass horn with Zildjian Cymbal Cleaning Polish. Depending on the darkness or extent of the oxidation, it may take several applications to get a brilliant shine. Unlike cleaners like Brasso, there is no need to worry about rubbing through the brass with this polish. It's made specifically to not remove any metal, so it's non-abrasive.

2. After step one, wash horn in warm water with mild soap. Then put a coat of 3M silver polish over the bright shinning brass. This silver polish leaves a light protective coating on the metal. This will slow the oxidation process down dramatically.

I use the Zildjian polish on all of the raw brass slides on my trumpets. It cleans without removing metal. It won't scratch or damage silver plating. The oxidation process will inevitably happen depending on how much you handle the horn but the clean up will be much quicker the next time.
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