Olds Recording vs Ambassador...

[kramergfy]

Did searches but haven't found any threads covering a direct comparison between these two.

I have a Fullerton Ambassador that's nearly all raw brass (still some lacquer here and there) and I really like my sound on it. Strong core surrounded by a distinct clear ring with plenty of edge when I push it.

The problem is, intonation can be finicky, and it plays a bit tighter than I'd like. Slotting seems okay, but over all it plays a bit restrictive. My Bel Canto 54 is more open, but isn't as bright as I'd like. *I am not interested in mouthpiece suggestions at this time.

My question then, is how a Recording would compare to my Ambassador. Can I expect a Recording to have a similar sound but with a more open blow? Possibly even more ring to the sound when pushed? I've always wanted a Recording for many reasons (the offset 2nd valve always seemed nice), and what I need is basically a horn that has a the ring like my Ambassador, but plays more in tune and more open. Would a Recording fit that category? I've heard that the Recording and Ambassador have the same bell taper and flare, but the Recording has a bigger lead pipe.

If it helps; I primarily play in a wind ensemble and a big band.

*NOTE: I DO NOT WANT TO MOD MY AMBASSADOR. I will ignore any posts recommending various changes. I do not wish to change it at all.
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"I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy

Thread killer.

[Capt.Kirk]

Not going to touch the A to B comparo on this one. They have the exact same bell profile made on the exact same bell mandrel to the same quality standards! The bigest problem on the Ambassadors made at Fullerton is the leadpipe and bracing used to tie the bell to the leadpipe. The LA models used bracing that looked the same to the average person but was made up of 5 different pieces per brace with zero stress the Fullerton braces are made from three pieces which means you have to use some tension to hold the parts together. The LA had different water keys and the leadpipe also appeared to be different!

So if you want to fix the issues with the AMB think about a different leadpipe and bracing. If you like to stay rather conventional try a Bach 43 or 7 pipe on that Olds and think about some Z braces from Kanstul. Have someone that can play that is also a technician sweet spot the braces especially the front one as it makes a huge difference.

If you want to radically improve the way that Olds plays then get an Accusonic R45X leadpipe from Rich Ita and again think about a different bracing set up! You can quite litteraly do away with the need to kick out the third slide on most notes and you will like wise not even have a need or desire to install a first valve saddle in most case's. It opens the horns upper register nicely , improves almost every thing about the horn the color pallet available intonation, core, it will even project better! In fact my Mother guilted me into giving my horn to my son because it made such a huge difference!

I have installed an Accusonic on my Reynolds which was made by Olds. Mine already had the stress free bracing system used on more expensive Olds Models so I did not have to worry about that!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[TrptSTP]

[camel]

[Capt.Kirk]

I did read the OP's post. You assume I did not read read it! You know what they say about assumptions?!?!?

You can not A-B them because they have too many differences in bracing and leadpipe! Plain and simple! I could take a Recording and cripple it the same way by putting Fullerton Ambassador Bracing on it and the same leadpipe and guess what it would sound almost identical to the Ambassador.

You have to fix the design flaws in the Fullerton model Ambassador before you can A-B them fairly. If you wanted to A-B and Olds Ambassador against the rest of the Olds line up you would have to at the very least the bare minimum A-B an LA model in like condition to what ever other Olds you wanted to compare it to just to remotely be fair! Anyone that does not understand that the bracing and leadpipe make a huge difference in the end product of a trumpet does not understand the tool they use to make music at all!

Their have been plenty of threads about how a Recording sounds and the differences between LA and Fullerton Vintage!

To add insult to injury one the most famous and most heard trumpets in the world is Uan Rasey's Olds Recording but he asked for an Ambassador so they met him half way and made his Recording Model with the Olds Valve assembly. He did not like the offset valves on the Recording. I doubt any of you on this sight are any where near as good as Uan Rasey was or have a better ear then he had! http://www.robbstewart.com/Museum/OldsRasey.html

Had he had his way I am sure people would be besides them selfs to get a hold of an Ambassador instead of a recording! LOL Point is his recording did not sound any less like a recording in spite of it being more Ambassador then Recording! Since they have the same bell profile and in his case the same valve assembly and all the same tuning slide geometry the only difference in this case would be the leadpipe, receiver, bracing, water keys......That is it. So it was more then 75% probably close to 80% Ambassador and yet it sounded and played like a Recording go figure???

The best part about history is that it makes the mighty and those that are so sure of themselves and so confident that they are better then all other's look like fools often! The devil is in the details always has been in trumpets!

http://www.robbstewart.com/Museum/OldsRasey.html

Anyone that is worth his salt with a buffing wheel, torch and willing to try can make an Olds Ambassador sound like any other Olds made short of the Opera or the Custom line. Leadpipe, bracing and thickness of the bell can easily be altered to produce many different sounds that is the entire design phillosphy of Olds and their one bell mandrel for most of their trumpets! Anyone that knows Olds knows that is how they worked their magic!
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[Retlaw]

I have had both and an A B is simple...get a grip Kirk! If you read the original post and chose to ignore what the OP was asking then you sir are arrogant and.......I will leave it at that.

The Recording is (IMHO) a superior trumpet in just about every way......one in good condition would be a significant step up. The sound is bigger....it is like the sock came out...Intonation is good and I find mine to be open especially in the upper register. I wouldn't say that there is a vast difference in resistance though. The bell may or may not be made on the same mandrel but the material is different ...the red brass does give a huge clear clean warm sound ......

I spend my first years on an Ambassador and remember it with fondness and hope it is being well played by the African musician I gave it to on a recent trip there.











Walter
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"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice."

[Greenleaf]

Walter!

Those are beautiful pics! What sort of camera/lens/lighting are you using?

Steve
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[mulligan stew]

[connicalman]

The challenges you experience with the Ambassador are parallel to me with mine. That was long ago, and yet the solution could be as simple as adjusting the mouthpiece gap.

Yes, I read. "No mods." OK, but it could be that easy, as the kid I donated it to used a different mpc, one that just fit better. On that trumpet. Problem solved. Good for him!

BTW it is patently unfair to EXPECT any trumpet to do what a Recording can do, IMO. But of course on can test-drive and compare.

I used various mpcs & paper sleeves, just to see how it responded, the Recording I got last year. At my level of expertise, the gap issue was evident but less pronounced on the top-flight Olds as compared to the entry model. That is, the student horn magnified the error of my ways and the way-good model (both early Fullertons) found a way to win.

Yes, all that yaddayadda and one more thing: with patience you can do a fair job aligning the valves & pistons at home. Doing so can help a trumpet feel like one instrument instead of 7 bugles.

No braces were soldered in the construction of this response.
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kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστε��ισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...

[silverhorn]

I love my los angeles olds ambassador, but my los angeles recording looks and feels better. It also outplays my ambassador in every way. As good as the ambassador is for a so called "student model" horn, it's like comparing a Bundy to a Bach Strad. Yes, i know there exists some exceptionally great Bundy horns and lots of strads that are dogs, but in general there is no comparison. And as good as my recording is, my super recording is even better!

[trmptz]

[gbdeamer]

[RogersBrass]

This topic is skewed before it even gets started.

The Olds Recording, in all it's versions over the decades, is one of the most beautiful trumpets made. The Recording has many proud owners.
These trumpets are impressive in an expertly restored condition..or left as original.

The Ambassador is most often found as a beat up piece of junk. The Ambassador does have it's cult following, and many of these are also highly valued by individual players.

If horns were people..the Ambassador would be from the wrong side of the tracks....and if you start looking over on that side of the tracks..you may find something you like.

In a perfect world everyone could own one of each...an Ambassador and a Recording..then all you would need to decide is what pair of pants to put on each day.
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[Retlaw]

[Retlaw]

[ChopsGone]

I'm fortunate to own several Ambassadors, as well as several Recordings. They're both very good horns, the Ambassador having long since proved it was one of the best buys ever offered in trumpets. But it's no Recording. The Recording Model plays easily, naturally, and with excellent intonation and beautiful tone.

As an example, my granddaughter started on an Ambassador. These days, she normally plays either a Kanstul Premier Mariachi or, most often, a Callet Jazz that's had the Flip Oakes Total Enhancement treatment. And she has a Calicchio 1s/2 with Reeves PVA and a 1s/7, as well as a Sonaré. But for a performance earlier this week, she borrowed one of my Recordings - she says it's her favorite of all the trumpets we have. Her way of describing it is that you can just slide right up to the high notes, instead of having to jump on them. Not the most technical of descriptions, but I know what she means.

No, it doesn't hurt that it's one of the best-looking horns ever built, either. Why should anyone apologize for liking the way it looks?
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[JDay]

kramergfy:

The Recordings are great horns, better intonation, and the notes tend to 'speak' and center better for me, versus the Ambassadors I have played. It does seem to be a little more open, but I am not certain if that is due to the leadpipe, or other design differences. I know that there is a change in leadpipes from the Ambassador to the the Supers/Specials, but I am not sure if the Recording uses a unique pipe, or shares a pipe design with the Supers/Specials, Studios, Ambassadors? Perhaps the Studio uses them same pipe as the Super, but I cannot remember...

Does anyone know what pipe the Recording does use?

As to Jazz / Big Band: While the Recordings are great all around horns, It may not be the best horn for Lead playing. An Olds Super / Studio may be a better choice for that venue. The Recording will do the job, but I have read comments where people have suggested that some Recordings may not fit that role as well. Hopefully some previous lead/bigband players that have used recordings will offer their thoughts!

In my last bigband gig the trumpet section consisted of my Recording on 4th, a Wild Thing on 3rd, a Kanstul 1500A on 2nd and an '80s Besson Meha on lead. (Seems Zig Kanstul had a connection to every one of our horns!) The Recording played just fine, but man, the Wild Thing and that Meha were just on fire. I must admit though that both of those players are full time monster lead players, and would sound great on an old beat up Bundy!

One other note: It is possible that if your Ambassador has stress in the bracing that it could have a positive effect on the horn if that were removed. Simple and inexpensive to fix, but would not likely help intonation issues. Another thing is to be sure the 3rd valve bottom cap is not over tightened. That will also often have a negative impact on a horn.

Good luck!

Jack

[JDay]

[Greenleaf]

[RogersBrass]

My previous post regarding the Recording did not say anything about "looks" or "best looking".

I said it was one of the most beautiful trumpets made..."beautiful" has a different meaning than "best looking".

I could write many paragraphs on the other differences between Ambassadors and Recordings..and how to mod the Ambassador...but I'll leave that to the expert on the topic.
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