How to control brass tarnishing?

[Crazy Finn]

...And people say silver is high maintenance.

[davidkoch]

Dale, that is beautiful... Would it really show on your hands when you would play it right after an application? Do you think that same product would work on a sliver horn? It sure would be a hoot to walk into a gig with a really really tarnished looking horn.
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Hi, my name is David and I'm a trumpetaholic.

[Dale Proctor]

I never got anything on my hands from it. The treated horn felt sort of like a lacquered one, not "sticky" like tarnished brass. I have no idea if it would work (or be safe) on silver plate. It did somewhat tarnish the exposed nickel on my horn, too, but not as much as the brass.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Crazy Finn]

[davidkoch]

See, I left all my horns sitting on a shelf for about a year, because that's how my practice room was set up. They actually tarnished slower....

I was thinking like a black horn would be kinda cool.
Sorta like a Cannonball, but not.


Edit, I think it would be a hoot at the community band that I was in last year, because appearances of horns were everything, and I actually got a talking to because my horn wasn't polished for a concert.
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Hi, my name is David and I'm a trumpetaholic.

[RogersBrass]

conte72,

Why are you bringing up brass polish...?...the OP has a brushed raw brass horn..as soon as you use brass polish..the brushed effect is ruined...and you then have a polished raw brass horn.
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www.rogersbrass.com
custom leadpipes

[Crazy Finn]

[davidkoch]

But it has to be clean on the inside. I freak out if it starts getting nasty.

Of course with the amount of playing I am doing up here, it's like once a week, but it's worth not having a nasty horn.
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Hi, my name is David and I'm a trumpetaholic.

[Capt.Kirk]

If you guys want I can type up a list of recipes for patina on brass and copper. I have such a book that basically tells you how to make every thing you would ever buy at a Hardware Store or Home Depot......I think it was written int he late 60's to late 70's I will have to check the title and copy right. It tells you how to anneal various metals, heat treat, make you own pickling agents, cleaner's strippers, paints you name it.......If you can follow directions and have a chemical supply warehouse you are set. I bought it at a used book store for like $2 and it was a goldmine..... It is about 2-3 inches thick and loaded with recipes and how to info.......

It lists the the patina agents by the color they produce on the material be it copper or brass slightly different recipes for each alloy.

I buy a lot of out of print how too books. The 1950's-1960's where the best years for this stuff because people where not sue happy and they will give you directions on how to do all kinds of stuff you would never find today!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[RogersBrass]

Kirk and I may be talking about the same book..or at least a similar book.
The one I read included some chemicals that are only available from chemical supply distributors.....and some that are deadly. What would be needed for trumpet patina would most likely be one of the simple mixtures.

One of the interesting methods of application with some chemicals..is to place the item in a closed container..with a small container of the patina solution..the patina develops over a short period of time...hours ?...days ?..from the atmosphere inside the closed container...kind of like finding fingerprints using super glue fumes on CSI.

A small 20 inch fish tank with a piece of glass on top would be perfect.

The standard method of sealing after the patina procedure is to use hard paste wax...but there would be nothing to prevent an owner of a trumpet with an attractive patina to have the horn lacquered.
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www.rogersbrass.com
custom leadpipes

[davidkoch]

[Ed Lee]

Many complain about tarnish and corrosion (red rot in the extreme) of their instruments. It is just my thought that a daily bath in a solution of baking soda would neutralize the acids in the air and those excreted from our hands and saliva to lessen such wear. Rinse with distilled deionized water and immediately dry with warm air adapter on hair dryer, and when completed seal in jumbo size Zip Lock type bag. Too, it is my recommendation that every horn player have and use a lead pipe swab immediately after playing. An alternate to the Zip-lock back is one of those Vacuum type bags (which I've found can be substituted with various sized garbage bags secured tightly with twine. If naught else, this procedure would be about the best one could do if storing an instrument. Once vacuumed such bags containing the instrument could then be enclosed in regular cases. Also, I've tied 12 ga shotgun patches on a cord with a fishing split sinker lead and pulled thru all my tubing and not been surprised at the gunk removed.

[laurent]

A few months ago, I found that (in french, sorry! But if needed you can translate it with BabelFish), and without saying it directly my question was refering mostly to the use of this product - or this type of products.

The case is that it seems to be pretty interesting for the owners of raw brass horns, but I'm not sure if it works really well or not, if it's easy to use or at least easy to remove in case of bad result, if it's long lasting or not...

In others websites I've read that to obtain a long lasting coloration on a brass object, it was necessary to anneal the item... And as I don't want to anneal my trumpet because I suspect it would be harmful for its sound and playability - and because I'm not equiped to do it anyway! -, my main purpose was to obtain testimonys from persons who have obtained good results in bronzing their horn... without annealing it!

So it seems that with the only exception of Dale Proctor who used a black patination product on a cornet, nobody in this forum has done such an experiment!

But as I have one or two brass objects really worn, I'm not sure but maybe I will order this product and test it. The method of application described by RogersBrass seems to be very interesting, it would be worth a try!
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Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD.

[Capt.Kirk]

laurent, Annealing requires heat int he 750°F-950° F range depending on the alloy of brass in question. That temp is so high that all your solder would melt and run and then crystallize before you got to the sweet spot of the annealing range.

Annealing can be very good for the sound of the horn and how it plays it just depends on what effect you are looking for. AS you soften various parts of the horn it makes it less likely to vibrate or resonate at low volume levels. This makes the horn seem dead to some and gives less feed back. It also makes the brass bell sound and play more like a copper bell. It makes it harder to crack a note. Depending on what parts of the horn get annealed it can also impact articulation speed and crispness and the same on the attack side of thins. It can also open up the slotting making it loser.

I just listed a few things do not want to make this a thread about annealing!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[laurent]

[RogersBrass]

Annealing regarding trumpets is done by color...not temperature.

It is something that should not even be thought about. It is done only to a bell that is off the horn..and it does nothing to improve the sound of a trumpet. Annealing has specific purposes....but improving the sound of your horn is not one of them.
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www.rogersbrass.com
custom leadpipes

[Capt.Kirk]

Well that is why you do not do it to a finished trumpet with a soldiered rim.

Doing anything by color to alloys is so old school that is dark ages methodology and not at all precise. Sure if you have done 100's or 1000's of a thing then you do develop a keen eye for temp./color change ratio but that is still not very precise.Thermometer's are much more consistent and once you know what temp you want you can do it repeatedly with ZERO variation.

I heat treat mostly steel alloys for machine parts, automobiles,knives etc.....I have done it by color and including the tempering process of removing some of the hardness to make a part more tough so I know it can be done that way. The people that taught me to do these things did it by color but with that said no one today would go that route if given a choice because it opens the door for variation and chance. A non-contact infrareded thermometer that is good from -40°C to 800°C with plus or minus 1° accuracy can be had for $40 or less if you have to have name brand then make it $79-$149 but still dirt cheap.


The first bell I annealed I did mostly by color and it was based on my experience annealing brass rifle cartridges for my competition rifle. I manufacture my own ammunition to standards that greatly exceeded what you find in any trumpet! I also went by the sound I got when I thumbed the bell to tell me when I had gotten the level of annealing I wanted.

It made a huge difference in how that trumpet played and how it sounded!

Tony Scodwell has publicly stated on this forum that he holds his bells at 850°F for 30 minutes. I am guessing he is using an Oven on Self Cleaning because those get up to 1000°F depending on the brand and the accuracy of the thermo coupler! So craking the door a bit would allow you to control the temp easily. Jasson Harrelson has written some articles on Annealing of all the parts of the trumpet as part of his SWE idea's. So have other maker's usually in passing conversation. Anything that alters the hardness of a material is going to alter how it responds to vibrational energy and thus change slotting,articulation and the sound of the harmonics generated by it once it starts to resonate.

I use a multi-step process that is much faster because I control the depth of annealing by how quickly I cool the brass. I also do not do the entire horn to the same level. I control the temp. time and depth of the annealing by how hot I heat each area, how long I hold it at that temp, how rapidly I cool it and how many times I do a given area.

To give you some idea how complex and time consuming some things can get with heat treating......Most gun barrels are after the final machining is done stress relived in an oven that heats the steel up to each manufactures desired temp. held their for 12 hours then allowed to cool in the oven once it is turned off at the rate that the oven cools! So heat treat can be rather involved depending on the part and the goal. Heat treating can make a huge difference in how two other wise identical parts behave! I heat treat braces and any tubing I replace on a trumpet and leadpipes and receivers that I replace! I do not always do the bell depends on what I am after!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Tony Scodwell]

RogersBrass, boy do I differ with you. Here's just one example:
I had four horns for six really good players to try, all with non-annealed bells that I picked. Everybody sort of agreed on one as the favorite so I went out to my shop and took the least liked horn apart and mounted an annealed bell picked at random. Blindfolded, everyone now chose the annealed bell horn as the clear favorite. I am convinced that what I do to my bells and having several to match up with the valve sections is clearly a major improvement in focus and projection. Benge did a similar "Resno Tempered" process as well. Recently, several top studio players in LA and the LA Phil section played through two of my Bb's with one unanimous comment. "These things really project". Of course that's what I wanted to hear but on the other side, all felt a lack of "roundness" in the middle range which has prompted me to produce a new model aimed more at the legit/Bach type of sound that some players are looking for [with better intonation and response] and this model will be known as the Scodwell USA "Boston" model. It has a sterling silver leadpipe and rose brass [unannealed] bell plus some different top and bottom caps and "harmonic balancers" similar to what the Destinos utilized between the first and third crooks. You may remember that I did some prototypes for Karl Schagerl a year ago which were to be called the "Las Vegas" model and the "Boston" model. Karl has signed James Morrison as an endorsing artist and the horn James picked was my "Las Vegas" model. I'm sure it will now become the "James Morrison" model and rightly so. With Karl choosing to not produce the "Boston" model, I will bring this out as a second model for myself. Meanwhile, I continue making my standard model with annealed bells and plan on a run initially of twelve "Boston" models along with my well received flugelhorns and the new 4 valve piccolo. Pictures of the copper bell flugel and the new piccolo can be seen in the TH Marketplace.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808

[RandyTX]

[Tony Scodwell]

I'm finishing up the first one and will send it to Kanstul for clear lacquering next week. I think clear lacquer will best show the rose brass bell and silver leadpipe best. I will put photos of it in the TH Marketplace as soon as it gets back from Kanstul as my skills posting photos here are at best mediocre. I'm quite exited about how it's coming together. I have placed braces a bit different on this one to best optimize the non-annealed bell Thanks for your interest.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808