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banddr2
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Joined: 05 Sep 2005
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Location: St. Louis, MO
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 Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: Different C Leadpipes |
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Several years ago I purchased a Kanstul 1510 C trumpet because I felt it played better in tune than the Bach's and Yamahas and had a better sound, plus I got a great deal on it from ebay. Now I am investigating taking the next step and trying to improve it with a new leadpipe. I was thinking Louisville leadpipes, then I stumbled onto a cheap Pilczuk leadpipe. This pipe is not a reverse like my horn, but I put it on anyway (which means a huge gap in the tuning slide). I noticed some improvement in intonation, but not alot, but probably not having the correct pipe this is not a fair test anyway.
I am ready to contact one or the other to get some test pipes but before I do I am curious if anyone else has had experience with either leadpipes on their C's? Or perhaps other suggestions?
BTW - I am not keeping the Pulczuk, it is for a regular length Bach C. If interested email me and I will make your a huge deal on it. |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Bob Malone's MC2 leadpipe with his unique tuning slide is a very good option for Bach and Yamaha horns. Don't know if they work on Kanstul's.
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Adam West
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Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| You can't really find the MC2 leadpipes, but Larson makes basically the same ones (perhaps better). I have one on my Bach Philly, and it's the best playing horn I've ever played. Every person that plays it wants to buy one. |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: | | You can't really find the MC2 leadpipes, but Larson makes basically the same ones (perhaps better). I have one on my Bach Philly, and it's the best playing horn I've ever played. Every person that plays it wants to buy one. |
I'm pretty sure that Bob can still do that mod in his southern California office but only to Yamaha gear. Last I heard he was still under contract with Yamaha. Though I'm not sure you can't buy the parts from his shop assuming you've got a pro who can install them. I own a Yamalone C and my teacher plays a Bachalone C, both great playing horns.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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tpetplyr
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Joined: 24 Jul 2002
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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I have an MC2 and really like it. It has a great sound and excellent intonation. I have a Larson pipe on my Bb that is his rendition of Malone's MB2 (the two stripe leadpipe), and it is the same story. Both of them make excellent pipes. One of my friends just got a Melk pipe for his Bb trumpet, and they're also excellent. It's really a hard choice to pick between these guys.
One thing to consider is that some of the pipes will change the sound more than others. Not a bad thing, but it can be different from what you expect; leadpipes don't only change blow and intonation.
Stuart
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Riojazz
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Joined: 25 Dec 2006
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Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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I put a Blackburn leadpipe on my old Bach Strad C, and it's much better. Cliff discussed with me what I was trying for, and let me try two alternatives and ship back the one I did not keep. Very good customer serice.
There is at least one other recent thread on this.
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Capt.Kirk
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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I would give Rich Ita a call and get the right Accusonic pipes sent to you. He normally sends out about 5 based on the horn make and model. You pay for one and sent the other 4 back in like new condition after you find the one that works best for you. Get it in one of the materials that is not prone to red-rot and it will last forever. With a C trumpet reversed I think always works better then standard set up because you get a longer pipe. Schilke said it best if you have to make a compromise make the pipe longer not shorter to improve intonation. I think that Accusonic pipes are worth their price. They are unlike anything anyone else has to offer and in the same price point. With that said they do not always make a huge difference depends on the model design but most designs respond great to them. It is not a one size fits all situation though you really have to at the very least get close to the ideal pipe size to see the bigest and most dramatic improvement.
So lets say that a Olds Ambassador normaly likes the Accusonic R45X he might send you R41,R43,R45,R46,R48 and then you test those out and out of those one of them is going to really make the horn come alive most will find the R45X is the best fit for the Olds Ambassador but because we all varie a little bit in our build and how we play their is some variance. When you go picking up a Random Accusonic if it is not close to the right size it might not work well. In this case you are trying to make a standard pipe work on a reversed setup! Not really the best way to test it!
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Adam West
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Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Capt.Kirk wrote: | I would give Rich Ita a call and get the right Accusonic pipes sent to you. He normally sends out about 5 based on the horn make and model. You pay for one and sent the other 4 back in like new condition after you find the one that works best for you. Get it in one of the materials that is not prone to red-rot and it will last forever. With a C trumpet reversed I think always works better then standard set up because you get a longer pipe. Schilke said it best if you have to make a compromise make the pipe longer not shorter to improve intonation. I think that Accusonic pipes are worth their price. They are unlike anything anyone else has to offer and in the same price point. With that said they do not always make a huge difference depends on the model design but most designs respond great to them. It is not a one size fits all situation though you really have to at the very least get close to the ideal pipe size to see the bigest and most dramatic improvement.
So lets say that a Olds Ambassador normaly likes the Accusonic R45X he might send you R41,R43,R45,R46,R48 and then you test those out and out of those one of them is going to really make the horn come alive most will find the R45X is the best fit for the Olds Ambassador but because we all varie a little bit in our build and how we play their is some variance. When you go picking up a Random Accusonic if it is not close to the right size it might not work well. In this case you are trying to make a standard pipe work on a reversed setup! Not really the best way to test it! |
umm, on the payrolll?
The MC1/MC2 and Larson pipes are all Bb length, hidden reverse leadpipe like the Yamaha Chicago. If you don't care about playing in orchestras, then Blackburn's pipes are great too.
I don't know what an Accusonic pipe is, but that is surely one of the cheesiest names I've heard  |
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Miketpt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: | | If you don't care about playing in orchestras, then Blackburn's pipes are great too. |
Ouch!
Mike |
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daDavemeister
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Location: Sonoma, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I've never tried a Blackburn product that I disliked and the folks at the shop couldn't be nicer. I played on a great large bore Bach 229GH with Cliff's #20 pipe for a long time and loved it. I ended up selling the horn because I eventually grew tired of fighting the dark tendencies of the horn(likely more from the bell than the leadpipe). I also had a Blackburn pipe for my old Getzen picc. Made a good horn a great horn... which ultimately made it all the more painful when I was forced to sell it to cover my rent. 
A good friend of mine has a Blackburn C, a Bach 37G with a Blackburn 19-348 lp, and had a Blackburn G piccolo. ALL are fine instruments with beautiful sounds and very accurate intonation.
That said, if I ever ditch my current 25H lp because I happen to have some extra cash while my chops are feeling like crap(that's when we all start blaming our equipment, right?), I'll probably go with a Larson. A good friend of mine plays a B&S C with a full Larson conversion and it is, by quite a margin, the easiest to play C trumpet I've ever laid hands on.
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Dave Lindgren of Sonoma, Ca
Bach 37 Bb, Yamaha Malone 6445HII C, Schilke P5-4, Schilke E3L-4, Dotzauer Rotary C, Benge 8Z cornet, eBay flugel |
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holeypants
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Joined: 22 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: | | If you don't care about playing in orchestras, then Blackburn's pipes are great too. |
Oh, come on - let's not do this. Many people play Blackburn equipment in major orchestras.
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Crazy Finn
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: | If you don't care about playing in orchestras, then Blackburn's pipes are great too.
I don't know what an Accusonic pipe is, but that is surely one of the cheesiest names I've heard |
| holeypants wrote: | | Oh, come on - let's not do this. Many people play Blackburn equipment in major orchestras. |
Yup. I know several, and I don't know THAT many people in orchestras.
You may or may not like them, but bashing them as essentially non-orchestral is... well, whatever. It's not really worth responding to.
"Cheesy" name or not, Accusonic pipes are generally well regarded and have been around several decades.
http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/html/pilczuk_pipes.html
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James Becker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, let's first take a look at the specs on the Kanstul 1510 before we jump to conclusions on what replacement mouthpipe is appropirate.
Unlike the 1500A with .462" bore and 229 bell (very Bach like specs), the 1510 has .464" bore and Kanstul's original#7 bell shape (not Bach specs). There are plenty of successful aftermarket pipes that have proven effective on Bach style large bore trumpets with 229 bells, but what exactly is a #7 bell? It's worth noting this bell is used on both Bb and C model trumpets. I'm not sure anyone without working knowlwdge of this bell's tendencies can reasonably recomend the best pipe.
Fitting this trumpet may require you send it to any one of several moutpipe makers. We'd be happy to take it on if you like, just fire me an email if you are interested jbecker@osmun.com
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Lboretrumpets
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I tried a full Bb length Bach 43 leadpipe with a very short upper tuning slide on my Yamaha Xeno... and I love it. Very full, rich broad sound, and plays very open. Experimenting with a few different makers could yield the results you're looking for.
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banddr2
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Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Posts: 14
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | Ok, let's first take a look at the specs on the Kanstul 1510 before we jump to conclusions on what replacement mouthpipe is appropirate.
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That's is what I was looking for, someone who plays my particular horn and has made a change. But I am not surprised if I don't find that person since not many play a Kanstul C. What originally drew me to the horn is that it does have alot of Bb characeristics, I am able to get a big sound with it and able to blend with other Bb horns, which I have to do alot. Intonation wise it is way ahead of the stock Bachs and Yamahas, and it may be hard to improve it much more. That is my biggest delima, should I spend alot of bucks for what may be little results?
Are there any 1510 players out there?? |
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Adam West
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Adam West wrote: | If you don't care about playing in orchestras, then Blackburn's pipes are great too.
I don't know what an Accusonic pipe is, but that is surely one of the cheesiest names I've heard |
| holeypants wrote: | | Oh, come on - let's not do this. Many people play Blackburn equipment in major orchestras. |
Yup. I know several, and I don't know THAT many people in orchestras.
You may or may not like them, but bashing them as essentially non-orchestral is... well, whatever. It's not really worth responding to.
"Cheesy" name or not, Accusonic pipes are generally well regarded and have been around several decades.
http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/html/pilczuk_pipes.html |
for the record, I never said blackburns were bad. Just as some else noted, they are dark, which tends to make a lot of work for an orchestral player. I had one on my horn and I had to get rid of it. Much happier with the Larson.
I don't know anyone in... let's say, the top 20 orchestras that plays a blackburn C trumpet. |
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ExtraLargeBore
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Joined: 15 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: |
for the record, I never said blackburns were bad. Just as some else noted, they are dark, which tends to make a lot of work for an orchestral player. I had one on my horn and I had to get rid of it. Much happier with the Larson.
I don't know anyone in... let's say, the top 20 orchestras that plays a blackburn C trumpet. |
Karin Bliznik who is in Atlanta now and was principal of both Charlotte and Charleston recently. She sounds awesome.
What "top 20" orchestra have you played in, Mr. West? |
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holeypants
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: | | Crazy Finn wrote: | | Adam West wrote: | If you don't care about playing in orchestras, then Blackburn's pipes are great too.
I don't know what an Accusonic pipe is, but that is surely one of the cheesiest names I've heard |
| holeypants wrote: | | Oh, come on - let's not do this. Many people play Blackburn equipment in major orchestras. |
Yup. I know several, and I don't know THAT many people in orchestras.
You may or may not like them, but bashing them as essentially non-orchestral is... well, whatever. It's not really worth responding to.
"Cheesy" name or not, Accusonic pipes are generally well regarded and have been around several decades.
http://www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com/html/pilczuk_pipes.html |
for the record, I never said blackburns were bad. Just as some else noted, they are dark, which tends to make a lot of work for an orchestral player. I had one on my horn and I had to get rid of it. Much happier with the Larson.
I don't know anyone in... let's say, the top 20 orchestras that plays a blackburn C trumpet. |
Langston Fitzgerland and Ramon Parcells played Blackburn Cs at some point, and Scott Moore in Memphis (not necessarily top 20, perhaps, but a major orchestra) plays one as well.
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Jonathan Vieker
The Lip Rip Blues
My ongoing recovery from a torn lip muscle, updated regularly! |
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James Becker
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Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ExtraLargeBore wrote: |
Karin Bliznik who is in Atlanta now and was principal of both Charlotte and Charleston recently. She sounds awesome. |
Yes, Karin does sound awesome.
In addition to her gold plated Blackburn C trumpet, Karin also owns a silver plated Bach C180L229 with an Osmun OB109 mouthpipe, our PVA and bell adjustments. It was suggested to her by both Tom Rolfs and Barbara Butler that she get a Bach for those times when it is called for.
I just thought you all should know.
And a big THANK YOU to Karin for sending Carrie Schafer our way to have an Osmun OB109 fitted to her Bach C trumpet.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Last edited by James Becker on Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: | | for the record, I never said blackburns were bad. Just as some else noted, they are dark, which tends to make a lot of work for an orchestral player. I had one on my horn and I had to get rid of it. Much happier with the Larson. |
Fair enough. If you put it like that, then that's a legitimate point. It's possible to have a horn that's dark enough to make it difficult to work in orchestra.
A horn's "darkness" and "lightness" and tone quality in general is dependent on lots of factors. Obviously, the leadpipe is an important factor, the bell, the body of the horn, the mouthpiece used makes a big difference, and finally the player's own personal sound.
So, it's quite possible that a pipe that didn't work for you - in an orchestral setting - might work for someone else, since they might have a different set-up and have a different (perhaps brighter) personal sound.
Obviously, changing that one factor on your horn made your life better. Thanks for mentioning and elaborating your experience, because, while not everyone will have exactly the same experience (because of the multitude of factors I mentioned) it's possible they will. That's what TH is all about, isn't it?
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