where do our countries traditions come from

[thesplitmeister]

Hey guys,
I have a question that has been plaguing me for a while. Below of the traditions I am aware of and I am sure there are many more
England - Bb
America - C
Germany - Rotary
As I say I am sure there are more traditions as well with regards big trumpets or tight trumpets.
But my question is where these traditions come from? I know that the Bb thing in England comes from the brass band background, but why do most orchestral players play C in America (traditionally) and yet jazzers seem to universally use Bb, is this down to the 'grass roots level' like in the UK? Similarly in Germany, rotaries for classical and (in general) pistons for classical.
Just to stop this getting side tracked, I know each player has preferences and most rep is much easier on the C in the orchestral literature (despite this I still use Bb, I just like it), I'm really just interested in why these countries or regions differ so much

Many thanks
Jim

[johntpt]

First those are general preferences but things evolve and change over time. For example I know of many UK players who prefer the C trumpet (Ian Balmain comes to mind), and a few who use Eb for just about everything!

The C trumpet came to the USA via the French school through Mager and the Voisins if I'm not mistaken. Herseth studied with Mager and since the 50s or so most American orchestras have sort of settled on the C trumpet.

Orchestras in the German speaking countries traditionally used the Bb rotary for almost everything, but nowdays many players opt for a C rotary especially for 1st trumpet playing.

Former USSR countries and Soviet bloc countries often use Bb pistons for most playing. Many other parts of the world use the C piston as the base orchestral horn.

JU

[thesplitmeister]

John, I realise many players in the UK now use many different horns and I imagine it's the same overseas as I say this is a bit of a generalisation. So the US orchestras were influenced by the French? That's interesting to know. Do you know why jazzers don't use C trumpets? It's always baffled me, especially for lead parts which would be much easier on C or Eb

[Craig Swartz]

In some countries, particularly the US, it is probalby due to the influence of those who are generally accepted as the best at the moment. In some countries, there is a nationalistic approach to what is played. In some nations it is probably a combination of the two, along with the preferences of the nationality of the present conductor. (see above...) In the old Eastern Bloc, it was often what ever one could get their hands on.

[John Mock]

I have read multiple sources stating that the Bb is preferred for jazz and contemporary playing simply because it produces the largest and also most variable sound.

The C trumpets are not as popular outside of classical venues because they generally do not sound as "big".

John
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[bigdanv]

[Capt.Kirk]

When it comes to Jazz you have to look at where it came from. Bb horns have been popular since the 1920's for sure in America and Jazz as a whole owes 99% of it's roots to Black America. Now do you think poor black kids where studying with French Master's learning the classics of Europe???? If you think so you are wet behind the hears. C trumpet is just as much about setting ones self and ones music apart from the common people as it is anything else. The guy wearing a straw hat playing cornet in a Barber Shop group along with a few strings is not going to be playing in the key of C sipping tea with his piny finger in the air!LOL

Jazz is popular and well recognized as America greatest musical contribution every where but in America. This is why it is till not well covered or taught with any importance at most Universities that have trumpet major programs. In America if you are not playing classical music from Europe in an Orchestra the most common reason for having a C trumpet is to play church music because Piano and Organ pieces are most often in the key of C. Very few H.S. kids would ever runinto anything in school that required them to have a C trumpet but a Bb trumpet is the norm so everyone that plays a trumpet from the poor kid in Harlem to the rich kid in the Hamptons all have at least one Bb trumpet! Tis is why Jazz uses mostly Bb it was created by the poor disenfranchised black man in America from a few other types of music that where also popular in mostly black America in "Jook Joints"! Blacks and Jews mostly German Jews are responable for the run away hit that Jazz is! For a PHD. in Jazz purchase all of BLue Note's Records the best of the best recorded with Blue Note. The owner of Blue Note was a German Jew that immigrated to the USA. So seeing how we are talking poor black America they where not running around with rotary trumpets and trumpets in C,E,D,G etc........They used what they had. Périnet Valves where often called American Jazz Valves or American Jazz Trumpets! Given the choice I think a lot of guys would prefer Rotary valves on their trumpet even for Jazz but in America traditional Rotary trumpets have been looked upon as those trumpets that the elite or snopish play not the American working mans trumpet!

I think that once Americans decide to start really reinvesting in Jazz in a big way like we did up through the 1960's that Rotary trumpets in Bb will come on strong for a while. I think the natural warmth and their ability to take everything you can blow at them with out breaking up will add a different dimension. We will have to wait and see though!

As far as tradition goes I think that it depends on which set of traditions we are talking about? The educated Trumpet Major will have a different set of traditions then his contemporary studio musician counter part that came up on the show circuit! SOme times tradition gives us roots it givesus a place to start. The problem with tradition only comes into play when tradition of convention begins to hold things back because that is how it has always been done etc.....Traditions help give us identities and a place to start!
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[sunburstbasser]

Herseth set the American orchestral world on fire. I'd wager that when people first got to hear him there were just as many who quit as there were those who tried to emulate him. Since he used a C trumpet for something like 90% or more of his playing, the C trumpet became the American orchestral trumpet sound. Look at all of the principals today, and you could bet money every one of them admires Herseth on some level.

My own idea for why Bb still dominates jazz is partly tradition, partly economics. Look back and pretty much all of the really important jazz trumpeters were not raking in the money early on, so they could only afford a Bb horn. Even today you have to pay a lot more to get a good C than a good Bb. And even after a few of them had the cash, why change what already works? As stated the C trumpet typically has a smaller palette of timbres to work with and there really hasn't ever been much choice-you either have Bach 229/239, or everything else. Look how many people made so many sounds on a Committee (Davis and early Chase) or Connstellation (Cat and Chet).
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[Norman]

In Italy the principal trumpet players I spoke with have differet views on what horn to play: some prefer the C trumpet, some prefer the Bb, some change according to what they are playing. But there is a general consensus that the Italian Opera repertoire should be played with the Bb to have the proper sound for the genre. So this adds to the mentioned traditions: Italian Opera, Bb trumpet.
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[Craig Swartz]

The principal reason Bb horns are used 99% of the time in the US for just about everything in the jazz realm, as well as the vast majority of everything else except orchestral playing by the overwhelming majority of people playing the trumpet (not true pros only, that's a different figure) is because that's what they started playing when they were 10 years old, and that's what the school band program uses. Pretty simple. That's the horn they learned, and that's the horn they have, most of them all the way through college. They may "step up" to a better horn along the way, but again, for the vast majority of people still playing during college and beyond, it'll be another Bb. Again, don't confuse what I state as meaning only the pros, or performance majors, since they are a very thin slice of the trumpet playing population.

In the US, nearly everyone begins participation in music via the public schools. For the most part, most of them learn to read/play music on about the same level they learn to read, write and figure- I'll let you figure out whether that's good or bad. In other countries, music is often taken on more in the manner US kids take dance and gymnastics- after school at a private studio and totally divorced from the school system. I'm not so certain these private studios, at great expense to the parents, do a lot better job of teaching the skills being paid for much better than the public schools do instrumental music, again, I leave that for the reader to decide. I'm not attempting to make any political statements or judgments, although one could certainly be inferred- I'm merely stating how things are in the US for the most part.

[jadickson]

I would guess that a major reason behind the American tradition is military bands. I think that military / community bands were everywhere in the 1800's and early 1900's, and what ever instruments they played probably became the tradition just because there were so many.

I know that in New Orleans, that is where most of the early jazz musicians got their instruments.

[jhatpro]

Interesting thread. As a kid I inherited my grandfather's C melody saxophone. It was almost as tall as I was. Don't see them anymore.

I've learned they were popular in the U.S. in the early part of the 20th Century because a principal source of parlor music was the piano and, if you had a sax in the key of C, you could play the vocal line on piano sheet music without transposing.
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[nextbrassguy]

Isn't part of the reason that C trumpets dominate in US orchestras due to the fact that Bach presented four C trumpets to the Chicago Symphony trumpet section in the early '50's? And then after that, orchestral trumpet players who wanted to emulate the Chicago sound naturally gravitated toward the Bach C's that dominated in orchestras until Yamaha and Monette began making inroads?

[GordonH]

One problem with a C trumpet is that you can't play some orchestral parts on it as it doesn't go low enough.
First movement of the Carmen orchestral suite by Bizet for example (something I am playing at the moment). It goes down to a bottom F# on trumpet in A which is a bottom F on Bb (barely possible) and not possible on C at all.
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[nextbrassguy]

[sunburstbasser]

[strawberrygirl]

Very interesting topic. I have found myself being interested in the instrument as well. A friend of mine use to play the trumpet, and it really sounds pretty cool. And thanks for this topic, now i have more knowledge about the instrument. http://www.strawfashion.com

[Timothy Connelly]

Several questions are implicit in this thread.

There is not just a distinction between Bb and C trumpets. There are various types of C trumpets--in some cases, their sound is not that different from a Bb instrument. So we should be asking not just why C, but why a particular type of C trumpet. Some may have tended to C horns because of transposition issues. But my guess is that most who favored C trumpets did so because they permitted more agility and more precise articulation.

As to the popularity of Bb trumpets---I think most trumpet players came up through bands (rather than orchestras) playing Souza marches, Robert Russell Bennett arrangements, etc., and probably never saw anything written in a key other than Bb. Beyond that, as has been pointed out, C trumpets cost more. They are also somewhat harder to play in tune.

As for jazz, Bb horns offer a fuller range of sounds. I remember Bobby Shew at a master class disparaging someone who had suggested that upper register jazz licks should be played on piccolo trumpets. Yes, the notes might be easier to hit; but you would not end up with the full-bodied screamer sound of Wayne Bergeron, et al. (Which does not mean that someone won't play jazz on some higher key trumpet--but, well, the burden of proof, as they say . . . )

Tim

[david johnson]