Kanstul Valves

[amendtptkeys]

I own the Kanstul 1600 tpt and the Kanstul 1525zfk flugel and twice now (after oliing them) one or more of the valves will not budge and get stuck half way down (this has happend on oth my trumpet and my flugel). One of the times this happend was right before an all sate audition. So obviously this is quite a let down. Has any body else had any problems with their Kanstul valves!?!?



Thanks,
Tom

[pedaltonekid]

I have a 1525 flugel and haven't ever had this issue. What valve oil are you using. I use Al Cass, even though I have heard that Kanstul doesn't recommend this.
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Best Regards, Play Well!!

[ewetho]

You need to clean them a few times fairly often and oil them up. Mine have started off good and are now FANTASTIC!!! They do not have issues for the most part.

Check for cleanliness!!!

I had the best luck with H2Oil and Berp BioOil. Ultra Pure is really fast too.
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Kanstul Chicago 1001 w/ CG Personal GP
Conn 80A w/ CG Personal GP

[VetPsychWars]

Clean and reoil for a week is the usual advice.

Plus, you can actually put too much oil on, so be wary of that.

Tom
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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939, 1946 Buescher Aristocrat Trumpets
1955 Buescher 400 Cornet
Meeuwsen custom 5C-ish mouthpiece
Milwaukee Metropolitan Community Concert Band

[ewetho]

That is true, If I soak the whole valve down and reinsert it will get slow for a short time after about 10 mins of playing. However just coating the bottoms has kept them slippery and fast.
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Kanstul Chicago 1001 w/ CG Personal GP
Conn 80A w/ CG Personal GP

[Capt.Kirk]

When I read reviews on various web sites and forums online the only consistent complaint with Kanstul is their valves. You either get a decent set or you do not which seems to be the norm with Monel valve. IF you read three reviews you normally get one of these three responses for the valve action "great valve", "ok valves" and last but not least " the worst valves I have ever had"......... So if it still under warranty I would send it back to them. If it is not under warranty I would still send it back to them.

Today everything is a comprise to keep the price down. So even though one company Getzen still does nickel plated valves no one else seems to. THe money savings is huge because you have to have a lot more people to do nickel and their is a lot of expense and time just keeping the specific gravity and other chemical factors in the plating solution right. On top of that you have all kinds of environmental hoops that add tot he cost and the more you do the more you need to dispose of in terms of waste this is a huge factor. Monel comes tubing can be ordered in almost any diameter and wall thickness you want. So it is really is a cheap way out since all you have to do is machine the holes in the right spot and braze in the liners into the ports holes.

Since Mr. Kanstuls reputation with regard to his products does not revolve around the valves this is not much of an issue as 99% of his competitors are using monel as well. His fame if you will is for building what the big companies will not build and making some of the most sonicly excellent trumpets that have ever been mass produced! He truly is like Baskin Robbins Ice Cream Shop in that he has a flavor for everyone!

I am sure that they will be able to fix this for you and will treat you well they are great people to do business with! I would add though that in the future as soon as you start having any issues with valves on something new send it in ASAP that is what the warranty is for. I am not one that believes in an exhaustive breakin period. If the valves have been properly hand lapped and the valves are cleaned and oil regularly after a week of playing the valves should be functionally excellent any longer then that and someone did not do a good job lapping the valves or they did not clean it well enough after assembly or something is mechanically wrong. So the valves will continue to wear until they wear out but it should not take long to know if you got a nice set of valves or if you need to have them looked at!


I do not think it really matters what oil you are using as the oil requirements for a trumpet piston are fairly easy to meet with anything from spit to lamp oil so anything better then those should have you covered! Oil really is not their to fix anything when you have to use oil as a band aid type solution it really is a sign that the valves are not right and an oil is being used to cover up for a mechanical issue.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[LittleRusty]

You don't say which valve is sticking. One thing that I have heard of happening is that the second valve crook gets hit causing a slight deformation of the valve casing. If the valves are properly fitted it only takes a small deformation.

There was a discussion in the past about deformation of the valve casing due to overtightening the valve caps. I personally doubt that one could do this.

The fact that this happens after oiling would seem to point to something introduced during the oiling. Perhaps some dirt from the slides or something like that.

Anyway if it cleared up later then that would support my theory about something being introduced during the oiling.

[oliver king]

Cleanliness is an issue. Wipe down your valves and make sure the bottoms caps are clean. Clean your horns well between oil brand changes so that you don't mix oils. I use Bells Super Lube on my newer horns and Hetman's #3 on the older ones. Things work out very well. The valves on my Kanstul horns are all light fast and even. I've a Kanstul Burbank flugel (about 20 years old) and they are the best valves I remember having on any horn.
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Blackbyrd
Burbank Flugel
Kanstul 930 Cornet
ZKT 1500

[sunburstbasser]

Kanstul valves are extremely tight and need to be kept clean. Take the valve out, and the bottom caps. Clean off all the old excess oil off of the valve and the inside. You can run a bore brush and some water through the valve case to clean it. As stated, mixing oils often leads to a sticky valve.

Use a good oil as well. I use Zaja and it works great. I think any thinner oil (for newer valves) should work well.
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Kanstul 1600
Kanstul 1510

www.speeddemosarchive.com
www.thehungersite.com

[mcgovnor]

There are so many variables regarding piston function, least of all the way your hand is set on the horn and the angle of your down stroke.
My experience with trumpet manufacturing today has led me to conclude there is less consistency in valve section and piston fit, for the most part, then there was twenty years ago. Many new trumpets have distinct differences in compression from one piston to the next, with almost no compression on one valve out of three, like the French Besson pistons were in war time and just following. Also, I've found binding pistons, as the op describes. If you remove the bottom casing cap, coat the piston with Lithium grease and a little oil, and hand turn the piston into the casing, from the bottom, a little at a time, spinning the piston and leaning it a little against the casing as you turn it, from side to side, then clean everything with oil and a lint free cloth, you will probably alleviate the problem once and for all, without causing any additional scene.

[LittleRusty]

Are you serious?

Based on the OP the valves have stuck only once on each horn, both times after oiling.

[mcgovnor]

Yes I'm serious, totally, and I'm also serious, and even more so, regarding the inconsistency in piston construction responsible for this and also other postings on other threads concerning similar piston problems with new horns.
It only has to happen once, on a show sub, during a written solo, or on an important recording session or orchestral sub to not get called back. It's not ever suppossed to happen. It's not about the oil, or anything else, 99 out of 100 times. This is a relatively new phenomenon.
Dead serious.

[LittleRusty]

Enough already. The valves stuck only after being oiled. Either something was introduced during the oiling, possiblly from a dirty horn, or the OP put it back together funny.

Home remedies are fine on your own horn, but your advice is overkill.

In fact if you read up on Schilke he advised never rotating the valves in their casings.

Scrubbing the edge of the piston against the valve casing is also never a good idea.

Oh and it is about the oil or something 100% of the time by definition.

[mcgovnor]

I knew Renyold Schilke. The valves on his horns were problem free. Before and after oiling.
What I have suggested has been done dozens of times, in my presence, and by me, with only positive results. I wouldn't post otherwise. Additionally, this is a technique handed down from one of the greatest recording trumpet players ever, who used it on his and his students horns.
And one thing further.
I post here with one motive, these past couple of years, and that is to help people with a problem, be it a dental problem, an embouchure problem, an injury, a horn problem or a mouthpiece problem. Whatever I offer in advise is time tested. It's not a floating idea or concept, it has worked. Lastly, I'm not posting for your edification, and neither did I post to discuss the efficacy of my advise with you. As I never mentioned scrubbing anything, but rather gently leaning the piston from side to side, perhaps your eyeglasses or computer screen could use a good scrubbing, better yet, deal with what I actually did say, not what you think I've said.
If the OP wants to try it, great. It has worked and will continue to do so.

[HERMOKIWI]

I have a 1525 flugelhorn that has problems with the valves freezing up if the horn sits four or five days without being played. For example, I can oil the valves and have them working fine and then not play the horn at all, just setting it on a K&M flugelhorn stand and four or five days later, still not playing the horn at all during that time, the valves will be frozen. By "frozen" I mean that I can apply quite a bit of finger pressure to the valve buttons (far in excess of what it takes to work the valves when everything is working fine) and the valves will not depress even a little. If I apply enough pressure they, essentially, break free and start to work OK. I then re-oil them and the process repeats in a few days.
Sometimes they get so "frozen" (rock solid) I have concerns regarding whether I should try to free them up myself or just take the horn to the shop.

I have had trumpet valves freeze up but only after a very extended time (a couple of months or more and even then it's unusual) sitting on a K&M trumpet stand unplayed (I collect trumpets and have them on display and play many of them regularly and some not very regularly). The trumpet valves are never frozen even close to the extent the flugelhorn valves freeze up, however.

I have tried many different brands of oil (Hetman #1 and #2, Blue Juice, Al Cass, etc.) on the flugelhorn and the problem persists. It doesn't seem to matter which oil I use. When the valves are freshly oiled they work great. The problem is that these valves require VERY frequent oiling because they seem to dry out quickly. It is this rapid drying out that seems to be the issue. It's like the monel sucks up the oil. I've never experienced anything this extreme with any other horn. I can rinse/clean the valve barrels out and things are OK for a few days but then the valves freeze up again. I have other Kanstul made horns (Callet Jazz, Callet Superchops and Wild Thing) and I don't have any valve problems with those horns. It's a mystery to me why the flugelhorn requires so much attention.

Anyone have have a similar problem and/or have any suggestions?
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"The problem with the trumpet is that, when you open the case, you don't know if you're looking at a friend or a can of worms."

"There it is, surrounded by velvet, just waiting to mess somebody up."

[LittleRusty]

Why advise the OP to take a step like this when a good cleaning and oiling will accomplish the same thing?

The only difference in your advice is that you are telling the OP to put some grease on the parts before he cleans the horn.

A good cleaning using a bore brush is just as likely to "fix" the issue and a much better first step to try.

Hmm, I wonder how many famous people have used a bore brush to clean their horns with only good results.

BTW, my motives are as pure as yours.

[razeontherock]

I switched from Zaja Blue to T2 on my 1525 with good results.

H, a horn can dry out sitting on a stand but it still shouldn't freeze up like that wow.

[VetPsychWars]

[Brent]

Have you contacted Kanstul? If you bought the horn new, I'd just send it back. Make them fix or replace it.

You shouldn't have take a bunch of time and oiling to break in new valves, especially if you paid that much $ for a new horn. I've tried new horns with monel valves that broke in with little effort.
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Brent

[lmf]

What's an OP anyway?