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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 208
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 6:21 am Post subject: Getzen valve guides |
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I play a 1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen. It has the plastic valve guides the horn originally came with.
When I started playing again (just under a year ago) I had my horn chemically cleaned, and I replaced the valve springs, felts and pads. Since I don't feel any slop in the valves I didn't replace the valve guides (although the Getzen/Edwards catalog does offer those in plastic, brass and nickel).
My question is, do the different types of valve guides make such a difference that I should consider replacing the plastic guides (either with new plastic ones or metal ones)? I know that plastic can wear down over time, so I understand how a metal valve guide might provide a tighter fit that could last longer. But is the difference in feel significant and does that impact playability and intonation? And if so, what's the main difference between the brass and nickel valve guides? In addition, the catalog states that the metal valve guides might need to be filed to fit each individual valve to ensure the proper fit, which concerns me, because that means I'd probably need to take it to a tech to get them to fit correctly (as opposed to the plastic ones which are apparently just a swap out replacement). While I'm a pretty good woodworker and have no problem working on things in my garage and have lots of tools, filing down a metal valve guide, if done incorrectly could very easily score the inside of a valve, causing damage that would then have to be fixed. So are metal valve guides really worth it?
If you're a Getzen player and have done this on your horn, or you have played on horns with both plastic and metal valve guides, I'd appreciate your perspective on this.
_________________
Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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Dayton
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Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 2068
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My question is, do the different types of valve guides make such a difference that I should consider replacing the plastic guides (either with new plastic ones or metal ones)? |
If I recall correctly, Getzen says there is a noticeable performance difference between the old plastic and new plastic valve guides. They recommend anyone playing an older Getzen update to the new plastic guides.
I've played both types of metal valve guides. There is, perhaps, a slight difference in resonance and brightness -- it's difficult to say for sure as the process of switching the valve guides takes long enough that I could certainly be imagining differences -- but also some increased noise to the valve action.
I didn't find the metal valve guides to be "better" than the (new) plastic guides, so I am using the (new) plastic guides in my Getzen trumpet and cornet. |
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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 208
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| Dayton wrote: |
If I recall correctly, Getzen says there is a noticeable performance difference between the old plastic and new plastic valve guides. They recommend anyone playing an older Getzen update to the new plastic guides.
I've played both types of metal valve guides. There is, perhaps, a slight difference in resonance and brightness -- it's difficult to say for sure as the process of switching the valve guides takes long enough that I could certainly be imagining differences -- but also some increased noise to the valve action.
I didn't find the metal valve guides to be "better" than the (new) plastic guides, so I am using the (new) plastic guides in my Getzen trumpet and cornet. |
Could you tell any difference between the old and new plastic valve guides?
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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Getzen
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1936
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 8:42 am Post subject: |
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The use of different metal valve guides have been debated a lot on every trumpet made. There is a difference in brightness, response, etc... going to a metal guide. However, for me, that improvement is not worth the noise and feel of the metal guides. I've never been a fan myself.
The new, machined plastic guides are another story. The are denser, harder, and lighter than the old cast style we used to use. They are also thinner so less friction and/or drag on the piston. In addition, the tolerances on the machined guides are much tighter so there is an improvement to the rotational alignment. I have not heard a single negative comment from someone comparing old vs new plastic guides in regards to performance. In all transparency, occasionally, the tab on the guide that locks into the broached slot in the casing will be a tad too thick. That is easily solved with a razor blade shaving a fraction of a millimeter from the guide until it fits correctly.
The old guides worked.... for decades, but they had some definite shortfalls. The casting process made them a little inconsistent, hence the sloppy tolerances required to fit. They also had a very grainy interior structure. So if any wear happened to the smooth surface, the exposed interior could grab and drag on the sides of the spring box. None of that happens with the new ones.
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Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
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If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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Shifty
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Joined: 23 Feb 2013
Posts: 256
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Getzen wrote: | | The old guides worked.... for decades, but they had some definite shortfalls. The casting process made them a little inconsistent, hence the sloppy tolerances required to fit. They also had a very grainy interior structure. So if any wear happened to the smooth surface, the exposed interior could grab and drag on the sides of the spring box. None of that happens with the new ones. |
When (what year) did the production switch to the new plastic?
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Getzen Eterna 700, Eterna 800
Conn Connstellation 28A, Victor 80A, Connqueror (1903)
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn |
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Dayton
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Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 2068
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Could you tell any difference between the old and new plastic valve guides? |
I've never done a comparison. My 940 picc had the old style and I swapped them out for the new ones a year or so ago. The valves were fine before, and they are at least as good with the new valve guides. My other Getzens (900DLX, 800DLX) are recent models that had the new style already.
I have well over 2,000 hours of playing time on those horns and can confidently state that the "new" -- they've been out for a number of years now -- plastic valve guides work great. I can't say if they work better than the old ones, but Getzen's response makes a strong case for that. Plus, they are affordable ($11?) so it seems like a risk-free upgrade of a wear-and-tear item. |
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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 208
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Getzen wrote: | The use of different metal valve guides have been debated a lot on every trumpet made. There is a difference in brightness, response, etc... going to a metal guide. However, for me, that improvement is not worth the noise and feel of the metal guides. I've never been a fan myself.
The new, machined plastic guides are another story. The are denser, harder, and lighter than the old cast style we used to use. They are also thinner so less friction and/or drag on the piston. In addition, the tolerances on the machined guides are much tighter so there is an improvement to the rotational alignment. I have not heard a single negative comment from someone comparing old vs new plastic guides in regards to performance. In all transparency, occasionally, the tab on the guide that locks into the broached slot in the casing will be a tad too thick. That is easily solved with a razor blade shaving a fraction of a millimeter from the guide until it fits correctly.
The old guides worked.... for decades, but they had some definite shortfalls. The casting process made them a little inconsistent, hence the sloppy tolerances required to fit. They also had a very grainy interior structure. So if any wear happened to the smooth surface, the exposed interior could grab and drag on the sides of the spring box. None of that happens with the new ones. |
Given that the tone of my '68 is plenty bright as is (which is one of the reasons I prefer it over something like a Bach), I don't see any advantage to changing to metal then. In your opinion however, would it be a good idea (from a maintenance perspective) to change the old original plastic valve guides that are currently in my horn to some of your newer plastic ones?
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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Getzen
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1936
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Shifty wrote: | | When (what year) did the production switch to the new plastic? |
We started working them in to production in 2018. Starting with the upper line horns first. By 2019 everything came with them.
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Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
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If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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Getzen
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1936
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| Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| rhatheway wrote: | | Given that the tone of my '68 is plenty bright as is (which is one of the reasons I prefer it over something like a Bach), I don't see any advantage to changing to metal then. In your opinion however, would it be a good idea (from a maintenance perspective) to change the old original plastic valve guides that are currently in my horn to some of your newer plastic ones? |
If that is the case, I wouldn’t go with the metal guides. I would encourage you to get the new guides. We actually sell a kit that includes the new guides, springs, piston felts, and top cap pads for trumpets. These are all components that wear out over time and that wear can have a pretty big impact on the performance of your trumpet. They gradually break down so you might not even notice it happening. The whole kit is $40.00 making it just about the cheapest and easiest upgrade you can do to your trumpet.
You can find the kit here [url] https://store.edwards-instruments.com/product/piston-performance-pack[/url]
Or for $30.00 you can get just the plastic guides here [url] https://store.edwards-instruments.com/product/valve-guides[/url]
_________________
Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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CaptPat
Regular Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2023
Posts: 64
Location: Eastern NC
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 3:18 am Post subject: |
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You can find the kit here [url] https://store.edwards-instruments.com/product/piston-performance-pack[/url]
Or for $30.00 you can get just the plastic guides here [url] https://store.edwards-instruments.com/product/valve-guides[/url][/quote]
Neither link is working for me, though one can navigate to the Getzen store from either the Getzen or Edwards Home Page.
I have a 2007 Getzen Flugelhorn, it came to me in new condition and it has no valve issues. I wonder if it makes sense to upgrade to the new style of plastic guides.
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Bach Stradivarius 180S37
Getzen Custom Series 3895
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I play trumpet because I like it, not because I'm good at it. |
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Ronnman
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Getzen
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1936
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Sorry I tried posting those links from my iPad at home. Obviously I messed something up or I can just blame Apple.
It is really difficult to say whether upgrading to the new guides is worth it or not. It really depends on the player, the horn, and how much it is used. Honestly though, I tried to price them low enough that it is worth the shot. They might not be a necessity, but they can't hurt.
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Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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rhatheway
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024
Posts: 208
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Getzen wrote: | Sorry I tried posting those links from my iPad at home. Obviously I messed something up or I can just blame Apple.
It is really difficult to say whether upgrading to the new guides is worth it or not. It really depends on the player, the horn, and how much it is used. Honestly though, I tried to price them low enough that it is worth the shot. They might not be a necessity, but they can't hurt. |
I already bought the piston performance pack without the valve guides to update the other components, so might consider changing out the valve guides at some point. Other than just feeling the valves getting sloppy or maybe not being quite as responsive, is there a tolerance measurement you use at Getzen to determine if valve guides should be replaced? If so, I can put a caliper to the old valve guides and see if they're ready for replacement.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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Getzen
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1936
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 6:21 am Post subject: |
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There really isn't a measurement needed. The wear that occurs on the valve guides is the part where the spring box actually comes in contact with the guides. A visual inspection should be enough to tell you if they are worn at all. Obviously, if there appears to be a "cut" in the guide that matches up with the spring box, you have wear. Also, if you look really closely and see what appears to be the interior grain of the guide, you should replace them.
If you don't see any of that and your valve action seems fine, you don't need to replace the guides. I would still recommend it based on the improvements they provide, but it is not a necessity.
_________________
Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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