Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1849 Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 11:23 am Post subject:
Wow, that Arturo interview was incredible. It should be somewhere on TH as a permanent sticky or something everyone can repeatedly access. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods
Joined: 23 Apr 2024 Posts: 38 Location: SoCal, USA
Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 11:04 pm Post subject:
Steve A wrote:
DAVIDTHEWRITER wrote:
... I want dark so badly...
I'm more of a bargain / high value shopper.
Assuming you already have a trumpet, a Curry TF mouthpiece (or similar) is definitely the cheapest way to take a big step in that direction.
Well formed advice. And after watching a video about just selecting mouthpiece for flugelhorns, it occurs to me that I appreciate the cornet instruments for their penchant to shape the sound with a sensitivity to particular mouthpieces. And with Curry brand mouthpiece (or similar) to audition, I'm better staying in my cornet and trumpet spaces. I've read that Jupiter makes beautiful sounding cornets that are high value. _________________ Ode to Joy is my earworm. It's a blessing and a curse.
Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 229 Location: Bartlett, Illinois
Posted: Tue May 07, 2024 6:02 am Post subject:
The best horn for a dark tone is the Austin Custom Brass Coppernicus by Adams. I have one for sale in the marketplace (shameless plug). Make me an offer I can't refuse. _________________ Del Quadro Grizzly
Yamaha 9335CH
1951 Martin Committee Deluxe #3 Bore
Couesnon Flugel
Carol Pocket Trumpet
Joined: 05 Apr 2023 Posts: 30 Location: Athens, GA
Posted: Tue May 07, 2024 6:23 pm Post subject:
I would go with a mouthpiece change first (sacrilegious, I know) but it will likely solve your issue for cheaper. If u live in any remotely close proximity to a store with Warburton equipment GO AND TRY SOME. I was digging around with big pieces chasing that “dark tone” but I tried a case of Warburton tops and backbores, eventually settling on a very good piece, that many may consider to be a small bright piece. A great mouthpiece is neither dark nor bright; a good piece lets you decide your tonal color on demand. Hope this was insightful, and happy hunting!!! _________________ “Words make you think thoughts. Music makes you feel feelings. Songs make you feel thoughts.”
-Yip Harburg
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8345 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Tue May 07, 2024 8:40 pm Post subject:
As you might gather from other comments on here, the primary thing that determines the sound coming out of a trumpet (or cornet or flugel - or any brass) is the player that is playing it.
You can shade your sound a bit with different mouthpieces, a different instrument, etc. But, these are shadings.
Discussion of finish is almost completely irrelevant.
However, if you want a fairly different or better sound coming out of your brass instrument, the thing that needs to change is the person playing the brass instrument and their sound concept. Everything else is mostly window dressing. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Joined: 23 Apr 2024 Posts: 38 Location: SoCal, USA
Posted: Wed May 08, 2024 6:08 am Post subject:
[quote="Crazy Finn"]As you might gather from other comments on here, the primary thing that determines the sound coming out of a trumpet (or cornet or flugel - or any brass) is the player that is playing it.
You can shade your sound a bit with different mouthpieces, a different instrument, etc. But, these are shadings.
Discussion of finish is almost completely irrelevant.
However, if you want a fairly different or better sound coming out of your brass instrument, the thing that needs to change is the person playing the brass instrument and their sound concept. Everything else is mostly window dressing.[/quote]
Yet there are reams of marketing literature, and masses of online discussions, over shades of timbre differences buttressed by the following instrument skin attributes:
Lacquered
Naked Brass
Rose Bell
Gold Finish
Silver Finish
So it raises a question in my mind. How do so many myths or hopes arise if the fact is instrument skin is only window dressing? _________________ Ode to Joy is my earworm. It's a blessing and a curse.
How do so many myths or hopes arise if the fact is instrument skin is only window dressing?
It's all relative. It depends on how you want to look at it. Crazy Finn is right that a player's sound is the player's sound. But there is an equally significant argument that equipment can make a big difference in how easy it is for the player to achieve that sound. When you get down to details, there are many changes in technology that have increased or lessened the significance of factors such as finish (old lacquer was significant, new epoxy not so much), or alloy (temper can offset the density), and so on.
It's not myth, but it's not 100% controlling either. Equipment characteristics can be selected to aid a given player considerably, but equipment will never transform a player into something that player is not. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
It's not myth, but it's not 100% controlling either. Equipment characteristics can be selected to aid a given player considerably, but equipment will never transform a player into something that player is not.
Indeed. The skill level of the player plays a part in this as well. A top level professional may be better able of bending sound/timbre to their will, where an amateur may run into the limits of the equipment used (and thus get a larger effect when they change equipment). _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Wed May 08, 2024 6:27 am Post subject:
[quote="DAVIDTHEWRITER"]
Crazy Finn wrote:
As you might gather from other comments on here, the primary thing that determines the sound coming out of a trumpet (or cornet or flugel - or any brass) is the player that is playing it.
You can shade your sound a bit with different mouthpieces, a different instrument, etc. But, these are shadings.
Discussion of finish is almost completely irrelevant.
However, if you want a fairly different or better sound coming out of your brass instrument, the thing that needs to change is the person playing the brass instrument and their sound concept. Everything else is mostly window dressing.[/quote]
Yet there are reams of marketing literature, and masses of online discussions, over shades of timbre differences buttressed by the following instrument skin attributes:
Lacquered
Naked Brass
Rose Bell
Gold Finish
Silver Finish
So it raises a question in my mind. How do so many myths or hopes arise if the fact is instrument skin is only window dressing?
Well, if you made and sold instruments, which strategy do you think would sell more instruments, saying "all of these different finishes make a meaningful difference to making you sound the way you want without you having to do extra work" or "the cosmetics of the instrument mostly don't matter. The instrument you already have will probably do 99% of any other instrument you could buy"?
Joined: 23 Apr 2024 Posts: 38 Location: SoCal, USA
Posted: Wed May 08, 2024 8:02 am Post subject:
Steve A wrote:
Well, if you made and sold instruments, which strategy do you think would sell more instruments, saying "all of these different finishes make a meaningful difference to making you sound the way you want without you having to do extra work" or "the cosmetics of the instrument mostly don't matter. The instrument you already have will probably do 99% of any other instrument you could buy"?
Since I am a consumer and not a maker, I can only speak to my disappointment that the much promoted and propagated effects of the skin, obviously stated as provocative and factual by the manufacturers, is probably literally baloney for all but the most accomplished musicians seeking the last half percentage of control that only they could experience.
For all but the most elite and accomplished players, the cosmetics of the instrument don't matter.
Unless one is in the top tier of mechanical instrument mastery, the skin, and all claims by makers and all the years of Forum discussions there about, were mostly just lies or delusions.
That music instruments descriptions, like every other aspect of consumables market copy, are mostly exaggerations, punts, or only true for the professional ranks.
That many of our posters have been kidding themselves and the rest of us.
Golly, what would happen if we gave the Shepherds Crook a scientific examination.
Well, if you made and sold instruments, which strategy do you think would sell more instruments, saying "all of these different finishes make a meaningful difference to making you sound the way you want without you having to do extra work" or "the cosmetics of the instrument mostly don't matter. The instrument you already have will probably do 99% of any other instrument you could buy"?
Since I am a consumer and not a maker, I can only speak to my disappointment that the much promoted and propagated effects of the skin, obviously stated as provocative and factual by the manufacturers, is probably literally baloney for all but the most accomplished musicians seeking the last half percentage of control that only they could experience.
For all but the most elite and accomplished players, the cosmetics of the instrument don't matter.
Unless one is in the top tier of mechanical instrument mastery, the skin, and all claims by makers and all the years of Forum discussions there about, were mostly just lies or delusions.
That music instruments descriptions, like every other aspect of consumables market copy, are mostly exaggerations, punts, or only true for the professional ranks.
That many of our posters have been kidding themselves and the rest of us.
Golly, what would happen if we gave the Shepherds Crook a scientific examination.
Those of us who have played on hundreds/thousands of horns, spanning several centuries of crafting and manufacturing, are well aware that you are simply wrong. The vast array of fabrication, materials, and form options explored over hundreds of years yields differences in performance that are both observable and scientifically quantifiable using a myriad of tools ranging from contact mics, to spectral analysis, to high speed timers, to mic grids for projection comparisons.
Selecting the right tool for the job makes any player better not because it changes their playing, but because it makes it easier for them to play as they wish. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
Joined: 23 Apr 2024 Posts: 38 Location: SoCal, USA
Posted: Wed May 08, 2024 11:35 am Post subject:
The key is getting one's playing and horn to the point where the skin alone makes the last fractional difference. That's top performance. Otherwise the mouthpiece selection is available to almost everyone as an adjustment towards their goal. The truth so often lies in the middle. And working towards top performance, that cannot be substituted.
The pursuit of excellence in music is a holistic process. It involves not only the technical mastery of the instrument but also the development of one’s unique sound and expression. As you rightly pointed out, the “skin” or the personal touch of the musician, is what ultimately defines the final quality of performance. Tips for using Adobe Acrobat XI Pro effectively. This individuality, combined with the right equipment, propels musicians towards their goals.
Last edited by beredis on Tue May 14, 2024 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 944 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Wed May 08, 2024 8:47 pm Post subject:
Hi, Thane Performance with large 72 red brass bell.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet
I need to listen to that Arturo demonstration again with better speakers. Though he was playing with different approaches on different styles of music, I’m pretty sure to some extent he still sounded like Arturo on all of them.
When I listen to players on YouTube demonstrating a horn, they all tend to sound quite different on the same model, because mostly, they just can’t get away from sounding like themselves.
If you listen to recordings to try to decide on equipment, what you can find is what a particular horn is capable of sounding like, not what you will necessarily sound like.
Joined: 23 Apr 2024 Posts: 38 Location: SoCal, USA
Posted: Thu May 09, 2024 2:47 am Post subject:
Rhondo wrote:
I need to listen to that Arturo demonstration again with better speakers. Though he was playing with different approaches on different styles of music, I’m pretty sure to some extent he still sounded like Arturo on all of them.
When I listen to players on YouTube demonstrating a horn, they all tend to sound quite different on the same model, because mostly, they just can’t get away from sounding like themselves.
If you listen to recordings to try to decide on equipment, what you can find is what a particular horn is capable of sounding like, not what you will necessarily sound like.
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